How to deal with your toxic boss. The Asian Mental Health podcast episode 20

Asami sits down with clinical psychologist and relationships expert Sanduni Silva. They discuss the emotional baggage we carry into the workplace and how to effectively communicate while staying true to your values. Listen to learn how to navigate workplace challenges and maintain your sense of self.

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The transcript is available here.

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This podcast is supported by the Victorian Department of Health via the Diverse Communities Program. All information provided is general information only and should not be used in lieu of professional advice.

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Transcript

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Shapes and Sounds acknowledges the Traditional Owners of the lands on which we’re recording and connecting with you from, the Wurundjeri Woi-wurrung people of the Kulin Nation and we pay our respects to Elders past and present.

Asami: Hi everyone, it's Asami with you right now. And my question to you is this, have you ever struggled with navigating work relationships? Well, our guest today brings us on a big conversation about all the different kinds of relationships that we have at work, which, as you can imagine, is a huge, huge topic. And it's always important to remember that these relationships with our work peers often are just as impactful to our mental health and our wellbeing as all the other important relationships in our lives. I would say it has a lot to do with the fact that we spend so much time at work. 

So we invited one of the psychologists on our Asian mental health practitioner list, Sanduni, to shed some light on how we can foster good relationships at work, how we deal with toxic work environments or difficult bosses, and how this can all help us continue on in our respective hustles. 

Sanduni is the lead psychologist and founder of In Session Counselling, a psychology and couples therapy practise focused on supporting people from all cultural backgrounds. As a South Asian woman of colour, Sanduni started In Sessions Counselling so that the complex nuances of a person's identity and experiences are seen, understood, and incorporated into the traditionally Western individualised process of therapy. I really enjoyed this conversation and I hope you do too.

MX - AMH theme

Asami: Welcome Sanduni. It's so lovely to have you here today. 

Sanduni: Thank you Asami, lovely to be here. 

Asami: As you know, the theme of this season for the Asian mental health podcast is The silent hustle: work and mental health. So I wanted to ask you like, what comes to mind for you when you hear that?

Sanduni: A little bit of sadness, I think, to be honest, it sounds kind of sad and lonely in a way. I guess the sadness maybe is linked to this idea of working really hard and pushing and hustling and really trying to do it all, but then the silence is sort of alone and it might seem really different on the outside to what's going on the inside.

Asami: Yeah. Does it resonate with you or is it like, oh no, I've seen this in my work, but not something I really think about?

Sanduni: I think periods of time. Yeah. And maybe that goes back to sort of being your own boss, not having colleagues at this stage, um, or, or a leader, uh, I do have a supervisor, which is really supportive who I meet with fortnightly. And I love that. It's like, oh, like, let me just vent, let it just be. And someone's sort of holding me, which is really nice. Um, but yeah, definitely periods of time where I feel like I'm hustling and then feel like that responsibility, I'm carrying a little bit of a bit alone. But yeah, I try and balance it then with periods where I get to just have lightness and get to take time off when I want to and not have to ask anyone. So, um, it's a, it' a balance of both, but definitely can relate to that term for sure.

Asami: It makes me think like what made you decide to start your own business or to start your own practise and become your own boss?

Sanduni: I guess, probably a little bit of a journey. So I worked in a couple of mental health organisations. I worked at Headspace for a little while and then also local council as well. And I really enjoyed the work. I was working as a counsellor and I loved the client work that I was doing, but I think I really didn't love the kind of constraints within which I was looking, which was you've got to be there at this time. You've got finish this time and there was sort of expectations of seeing six clients a day sometimes. And I sort of felt like some of those expectations were almost impeding on my ability to just be the best therapist that I felt I could be. I was tired and burnt out and those sorts of things.

MX in - Revving

I remember driving to work one day when I was at council and I was like rushing in a bit late that day and sort of driving to get there and then we started at nine and I got there at nine. And then the first 45 minutes, we were all just kind of like having a coffee and chatting, which I love doing with my colleagues, but it's like, how silly that I'm like racing to get here just to be here at nine when it doesn't really matter in a way. So, yeah, it's just sort of that having to keep up that sort of expectation or save face a little bit. 

Um, so yeah, I think I really wanted to work for myself and, um, start my own thing and choose my own hours and I guess also specifically with the culturally responsive work that I do, I was seeing a lot of multicultural clients in the work that I was doing. Um, and kind of wanted to sort of do more of that and go into that niche a little bit more as well. So, and have a practise that was dedicated to that. And so people kind of knew that that was the sort of therapy you're going to be getting. Um. So yeah, I wanted to develop that as well.

MX out

Asami: Just out of curiosity, like  you said in some places there was an expectation to have six sessions a day. For you as a therapist, what is like your ideal in a day, how many sessions to run and your ideal caseload size? This is like purely out of my own curiosity.

Sanduni: Yeah. Um, yeah, I've spent a lot of time like figuring it out and working with my capacity. Yeah. Um, and I think I've got it pretty well. It feels really sustainable at the moment and it's four clients a day. And I start at 12, um, there's a 30 minute break minimum between each session and in the middle of the day, there's one hour break and I just found like, I could do the same number of sessions, but with three in a row and then one hour break it just used to feel so different. Like I'd be so depleted. Whereas the regular breaks actually made such a difference to how I felt at the end of the day. So yeah, 30 minute break, minimum between sessions, sometimes an hour, which is essential for me and the late late start as well. Yeah.

Asami: Otherwise it's like, you're just piling through people. Like it's not sustainable for yourself, nor for the people seeing and working with you, right? 

We’ve spoken about mental health practitioners and burnout before, but before I get too sidetracked, this episode, we really wanted to focus in on relationships and work with you. Like there's so much to unpack here. And one thing that we found on your Instagram that really stuck out to us was this Esther Perel quote that you highlighted, which is, I'm gonna read it out so I don't get it wrong. 

“We take our emotional and relational blueprints with us to work.” Our team, we all thought this was really interesting and we wanted to dive into it. But to start with, could you just open up and explain this quote a little bit for us and even maybe introduce who Esther Perel is for those that don't know.

Sanduni: Yeah, I'm a big fan of Esther Perel. She's a couples therapist and she does a podcast called Where Should We Begin? The episodes of the podcast are real couple's therapy sessions and you're kind of like a fly on the wall and you get to sort of just listen in to the challenges couples are having and she is a therapist that sort of supports them through it. But I think I love the podcast because it's just so normalising to really often private challenges that people have in relationships, things like sex and affairs and, you know, resentments and things that we don't often see on Instagram and things like that. So I loved, yeah, I loved those episodes and I love the way she kind of works with couples in that space.

And in terms of that quote. And I almost imagine like all this stuff from our upbringing is like in a suitcase with us and we're carrying that along as we go to work every day as well. So, and I think why it resonated with me was just because the situations we have at work, the workloads, the kind of people we interact with, all of that is influencing or interacting with, you know, our inner world as well, and the early experiences we've had or just past experiences we had, I think it's all sort of interrelated and interactional. And I think it's empowering to a degree as well, because by knowing what parts of yourself are happening there, what's going on there, where they come from, it sort of gives us a sense of agency to sort of understand, well, what are my blueprints and how can I sort of work with them, understand them to have a different experience or perception. So yeah, I really love that quote.

Asami: I really hear you on that metaphor of people just carrying around baggage, right? Right? I think, like, as someone who has a team or manages staff, I've also found that people come, not just with baggage from, like family or relationships and friends and things like that, but actually like the blueprint of their past direct report, like their direct manager. And so then, if I'm working with like a new person, then it takes so much time to like one, notice what's going on, being like, oh, that's the baggage that you're carrying. It takes a long time to get to that point. And then it's like, okay, let me try and like build up the trust again, so that we are having a new relationship because people like reenact their old relationships over and over. Yeah. And then by then it's like six months time. And then you're like, okay, I'm exhausted. 

Sanduni: Yeah, the term baggage, I mean, it's it is that suitcase that we're talking about. But but also, I think something I've really kind of come to realise and see working with clients is sometimes the thing the parts that we struggle with the most are also the parts of our greatest strengths as well in that, like perfectionism, for example, can be something that's so challenging, it can lead to sort of a lot of paralysis or procrastination and be a big challenge, but it can actually lead to people, you know, doing really well in certain roles as well. So yeah, the, the idea of baggage it is in that sort of metaphor, but it's kind of just like learning to like work with it, I think. 

Asami: It's like we all have baggage. It doesn't necessarily mean like bad baggage.

Sanduni: Yeah. Yeah. It can be like really harmful or hurtful to you, but if you sort of like work with it, then I think it can also be a strength in a way too. Yeah, just, just the thought I was having.

MX in - Turning over a new leaf

Asami: What about if we bring in that cultural perspective and like just say your home environment and your home culture, as in like your family and relationships and like friends is so very different to the work culture. How does that all interplay?

Sanduni: I guess like in terms of the influence of the blueprints, it would be things like you know, maybe an example would be if you had sort of a really authoritarian family or relationships, you know growing up or even other relationships at previous jobs, for example, where it was very much like, this is what you got to do, you know this is, what I say no questions asked, really strict you know really sort of forceful in that way, then the blueprint would be whatever you learned to sort of do to cope with that in that it might be to fawn, okay, I'll do whatever you need me to do so that I feel safe. Or it could be to rebel and protest, be like, no, screw this. Like, I shouldn't have to do this. I'm not gonna do anything you say, go the other way kind of thing or yeah, or like perfectionism, I'll be the perfect person so I never get sort of criticised. I mean, we sort of learn ways to keep ourselves safe, to stay bonded to people in an early stage of our lives. And those kinds of blueprints can happen in the relationships we have with people at work as well. 

And even things like schooling experiences as well, like school is almost like where we learn things like academic expectations or teachers and authority figures and stuff like that. And how to sort of, how we respond to structures and expectations. So how you managed and coped with those sorts of things can also kind of come up, you know, in a similar way in a workplace context as well. And it doesn't mean we're stuck with them or you're destined to now just repeat all these patterns But it's sort of just what the body does. It adapts to the environments around it. It learns ways to kind of cope and survive and manage. And so it sort of does the same thing in like a workplace environment until we step back and understand, well, I see my body sort of doing this thing that it's learned to do. Is it still helpful for me now? Maybe sometimes it is, maybe sometimes it isn't. Are there other ways that I haven't realised are available for me that serve me a little bit more?

MX out

Asami: I think that's such a critical question, isn't it? It's like, one, you notice, and often people get stuck there. Like, okay, now I see. Now I'm repeating patterns, all right. But I think what you just highlighted there is like, that's the moment where you ask yourself, is this helpful right now? Like, do I actually want to be like this?

And what would you say to those people right at that crux moment? Like how, how do people start to change behaviour that is just so deeply ingrained?

Sanduni:  I think firstly, it's really hard. It's really hard. It sounds so simple. And then I'll change it. It's a really hard and it's really for saying that. Yeah. Yeah. It sort of like step one makes it sound so simple, but it really isn't. And also it can be so insidious and so like deep rooted and unconscious in a way too. So even the noticing step can be really difficult as well. It creeps up without us really realising we've kind of crossed our boundary, for example. Maybe I can share like a personal example of a recent experience. 

MX in - Revving

I was, um, thinking about starting a group practise and maybe hiring other counsellors. And that's still something I might do in the future. But the start of this year, I really sort of was thinking about doing that and was noticing myself like this chaotic energy of just got to do this and got to that and hustling silently hustling, you know, in a way, or maybe not so silently. I was complaining a lot. Very loudly. Um, but I was really busy and I've just almost like had committed myself to this goal and, you know, really wanted to make it happen, but I sort of noticed just this stress that I was carrying and, um, chose to pause and actually sort of check in on it and reflect on it and understand what's going on for me. Why am I so stressed about this? Why am I clinging so much onto this goal and did some journaling and spoke to people and kind of uncovered that it was so much of it was about my own ideas of success and starting a business and trusting myself and going out on my own. 

It was sort of this sense of I've got to keep growing, you know, I've gotta keep kind of proving that this was a good idea. And, you know almost like maybe teenage me that was like, I'll show my parents that this is a good idea. I don't know sort of unconscious parts, those blueprints were  sort of running the show a little bit until I paused, noticed it and became curious about what is it that I'm really wanting most from work, from life. 

And I think it's pretty simple. Like, I think contentment really. You know, it's this idea of my business will be successful, my work will be successful and then I can be content. Once I realised that, it was a lot easier for me to sort of understand and let go and sort of realise, well, I'm actually pretty content already. I'm content today, you know, And so I'm hustling for this future thing to ultimately get peace and contentment when there's an option, there's another way, which is I can choose contentment today, I can see my friends , I can work less. 

I guess in summary of that, it's identifying like the deeper need or longing or existential kind of want that often drives some of these protective parts that we have and then seeing if you can meet it in a way that's nurturing to you.

MX out

Asami: I think your answer is almost like, not like what did you do, but it's almost like what did you stop doing? It's like what, what did, you kind of, it sounds like there was like a bit of a letting go. Yeah. Yeah. 

We've started to talk a little bit about work and how we show up at work, but I would love to get into a conversation with you more about relationships at work. And maybe a good place to start around that is, you know, a conversation around power imbalances at work? What are some of the common workplace relationship issues that your clients might kind of come and talk to you about?

Sanduni: Yeah, I think the most common one would be related to leadership, people really struggling with the leadership style or a specific person that's a leader. And yeah, yeah, there's sort of other ones too, but that's probably the most common kind of theme I probably see when I talk to clients who are experiencing work issues.

Asami: Yeah, right. Kind of like with their direct leader, like their direct manager.

Sanduni: Yeah, direct, sort of usually like one, one person, a few people. But I guess that power imbalance kind of speaks to that. And I think maybe in part, um, why that becomes such a challenging kind of relationship is because of the kind of powerlessness that is felt in that, in that. There's this sort of silencing I think that can happen of, well, I can't say anything or I have to just deal with it or there’s consequences if I speak up, and then that leads to this feeling of stuckness, trappedness, you know, what can I do? I have to just listen. Yeah that is probably a recurring thing that I see clients talk about.

Asami: As a therapist working with people with concerns like this, what do you say to them? I know everyone would be different, but I'm wondering, like, because obviously you're not there in the workplace, you can't actually see and experience those interpersonal dynamics. Like, how do you support people through that?

Sanduni: The first thing is really just having a space for them to be able to talk about it, to be able be heard and understood. I think that's always the most important part of therapy, the relationship, the safe space, especially if there's a feeling of not being able to speak, you know, to the person in authority or if the workplace culture is kind of silencing in a way, or toxic where they feel really disempowered there. Sometimes as a therapist, it takes my own sort of insight to realise when I need to step back and do less and actually just the therapeutic benefit of that person being empowered to just speak freely. And to be honest, often I ask my clients to like, what are you looking for here? Would you just like a space to talk? Would you like, you know, some strategies or what, what kind of, would you like from this space too? So I like to be kind of collaborative and sort of led by them as well. And, um, I think I can probably relate to that. Sometimes I just want to vent, other times I want a solution and, you know, so I think it's the same for any humans just checking in with what someone wants and needs. 

But yeah, if relevant, that's sort of what we're talking about before understanding what happens in their body when there's an authority figure or when someone's speaking to them in a way that's really domineering or, um, what's their responses and normalising that too. I mean, if someone's bullying you or there's a power imbalance and, you know, you, you do feel stuck, like you can't do anything or speak that is, that does, that can feel really unsafe, you know, and it's normal to want to fawn or it's normally to want to avoid. And I think that normalising of this is what happens to all of us when we are feeling really threatened can be really de-shaming, like there's nothing wrong with you, but rather this is what our body does and this is the environment is kind of doing. So, yeah, sometimes just some like, I guess discussions about what's happening in their body can be helpful too.

Asami: It's so interesting, isn't it? It's like, as you highlighted, many people are in positions where maybe they'll never get a chance to confront a really toxic boss or anything like that. But what you kind of highlighted is even creating an alternative space where people can speak freely like that supports the body or supports the nervous system or supports the human to feel differently I guess.

Sanduni: It kind of meets the need in a different context. 

Asami: One thing I want to bring up which is like a little bit of a tangent, but overall related is I want to talk about people's experiences of racism at work. This is something that we hear about a lot, like people of colour in workplaces, facing like racism or racial microaggressions, which people often have a hard time identifying as well. 

This will go somewhere, but let me just share an example, Right. So once I was on placement, this is in a hospital. So this is like amongst within the health service. And I was at the end of the day, I was doing my notes. And then the two clinical leads were talking about their next intake of social work students, right? So they were talking and it was a small office. It was like the size of this room. So I could hear them. Like I could literally see them, you know? And they could see me. And then these two women who were white, they were talking. They were like, oh, how did your interviews go today with the students? And then the other one was like, oh, you know what it's like, like students. And they're like, oh yeah. And then she was like I actually met a few good ones who were Chinese. And then the other woman was like oh, okay. And then, the first woman was like yeah. You know, often it's hard to take them because, you know, like the clients don't like it when the students have names that they can't pronounce. 

I was like, hang on a sec, hang a sec. Right? So for context, it was like an inpatient unit. So obviously if you're really unwell, the last thing you need to think about is how to pronounce people's names. But what I did not like about that comment was the fact that she assumes that every patient is white when actually the patients on the ward are reflective of the overall population, which is very, very diverse within Melbourne. So then I was like, yuck. And then what I did was I told my supervisor at the time, and then like, it caused a huge hoo-ha. But anyway, what I'm trying to get to with this conversation is like, can we talk a little bit about the systems that we exist within? Like, there's so much that we can do to support ourselves, right? And to find good workplaces. But sometimes the reality is there's just like systems at play that are really hard to navigate.

Sanduni: Yeah, definitely. I think that's a really important aspect to mention that you could do all of the inner work and all the individual stuff and reflect on your upbringing and so on. But we are living and working within so many forces and systems that are historical, that's at play things like racism, white supremacy and capitalism as well, which kind of rewards that productivity culture, shames you for needing or wanting rest as well. And in terms of racism, it can just add to that sort of power dynamic that's experienced in certain spaces. 

You know, will the way that I present at work be understood or accepted? Do I need to mask or change aspects of myself, which is this invisible, silent, mental load that we can carry as people of colour. 

MX in - Domestic

I think these systemic influences also feed into the experience of imposter syndrome that we can have at work as well. Race has a role there. I was talking to my cousin actually about this recently and this idea around this which is: we feel imposter syndrome as people of colour because there's a conditioned idea of what an imposter isn't. Someone who’s loud or extroverted or confident in the room or can really be assertive for example. You know these are sometimes things we see with someone who has had privilege, not feeling like they don’t belong in spaces.

We've got this model of whiteness that tells us what someone belongs can look like and against that we can feel like a fraud when that's not true, but that can be what we're told by systems around us.

MX out

[BREAK]

Asami: Tell me, the million dollar question, right? How do you work with a toxic boss? How do we survive? 

Sanduni: God, you tell me.  

Asami: OK, I'll give you some context. Yeah, like even think about if you are a newer migrant and you're in Australia on a skilled migrant visa, which means that you're life and your ability to stay in this country is connected to your workplace. And you don't really have the freedom and the flexibility to be kind of like confronting a boss or even standing up for yourself, I think. I'm sure you do have that right to do so, but I can imagine that many people don't feel that way and so, and then if someone like that, where there is such a huge power imbalance already, if someone like that is facing a really toxic work environment or a toxic boss, like what should they do?

Sanduni: Yeah. I guess in those situations, I think, I think Western therapy would say assertive communication. 

Asami: Yes talk about that 

Sanduni: Like, I guess like Western psychology would sort of talk about skills in assertive communication and how can you sort of assert your needs and sort of feelings and experiences in a way, um, that's that channels, maybe some of the frustration you're feeling, um into an assertive sort of way. So you're still expressing yourself. Um, but you're not exploding with anger or, or keeping it in. It's sort of the balance, the middle path between those two extremes. Um, and I think there's a place for that. And that's, that's great. You know, I think we can all, you know, learn the skills of assertive communication and that doesn't do any harm, but, you can't sort of control whether someone listens, you, know, and, I guess that's the challenge with a toxic manager or toxic boss or a toxic workplace culture. You can't really control how someone else behaves and someone else responds, it's kind of similar with boundary setting, you can set your boundaries and do it, do it really clearly and assertively and, you know, um, reasonably, you now as well. But if someone crosses them or expects you to cross them, that's not something that's always within our control. So you're sort of left in this challenging situation of. Or does this culture actually honour what's important to me? Does this space really value my needs and my boundaries? And that's a question that is important to ask sometimes if we can.

Asami: Yeah, I really like what you said about boundaries and like you also have control in the expectations that you set of others. I don't know if I'm paraphrasing that, but it's like you can help other people understand where your boundaries sit.

Sanduni: So, how you come across can influence how someone responds to you.

Asami: Exactly. Like just say you have a toxic boss that keeps throwing stuff at you. Like do this, do this. Do this. But then do you have agency to be like, actually, like, I'm not going to do that task because you asked me to do this task already, or is it like, I'm reliving my blueprints and I keep just like taking on that stress and taking on that work, then you start to set this expectation that people can dump work on you.

Sanduni: Totally. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So happens, doesn't it? It's almost like, Oh, this person will say yes, or they won't fight back or they're willing to work till midnight or something. So then that sort of puts you in that position then of, you know, the person that gets all the work and you say yes. And again, it's that interaction, I think, between the workplace overwork kind of culture, and then your own sort of responses to and how it's almost that people pleasing response is almost taken advantage of in a culture that takes advantage of it.

Asami: Yeah, my goodness, huh? As you say, there's no easy answer, right? And you kind of spoke a little bit about assertive communication, but just for those listening, like, um, could you articulate what that means or what that looks like?

Sanduni: I think when I talk to clients about this, I often talk about the emotion of anger, because I think assertive communication is usually like a way to channel your anger. So we need to get angry sometimes, you know, and have permission to feel that and the anger is really informative. Anger tells you when a boundary is being crossed or when there's a deeper hurt that's kind of underneath it. So usually for us to be assertive. Usually there's a little bit of frustration or anger involved, that emotion might come up, which is somewhat empowering at times. It can sort of propel us to act or speak. So channeling anger into assertive communication. And I guess what that would look like would be, you know, expressing kind of clearly, like, hey, this is how I'm feeling in this situation. You know, I really need this, if that's possible. And really just sort of bringing that in and not sort of shying away from it. I like to use the idea of I language, you know, that I feel like this or I'm experiencing this as a bit of a strategy sometimes for assertive communication. 

Often when we use kind of you language or you did this or you do that, or you've really kind of, you have done this, people can get really defensive and not respond as understandingly or as openly. So a strategy, I guess, to sort of practise assertive communication would be some of that I language kind of framework. So I feel, and, and then even doing that, you're advocating for you, you're sort of bringing in this is my experience, this is real, this is valid, which is sort of the message I think you're wanting to convey with that assertive communication.

Asami: And even if that was not the person's intention, they still need to know that you are upset, right? And I think that that's really healthy too. It's not necessarily a bad thing. Like it doesn't actually have to be anything bad at work when you communicate something like that. That's what I've been practising too, like just to be like. don't, please don't speak to me like that. Yeah. And then people are like, oh, I didn't realise, okay, I won't speak to you like that and it can be positive, but I don't know. I don't think it was so positive when I was younger and I always thought like, are these like racial dynamics happening at work? 

But when I look back, I'm starting to think, maybe it was more like I was like always so emotional. If something upset me, I couldn't control the emotions. So then any feedback I gave would have been really emotional. Whereas now it's like, you know, I can like feel it, that hurt, let me sit with it. Let me calm the emotions and then speak without emotion. And then it seems to come across better, but I don't know.

Sanduni: That's a really good point. Yeah, you're speaking from that grounded kind of place in a way you've sort of understood your emotions and what they're telling you. And then when you approach the conversation, you can be relatively kind of sturdy, stable, grounded. It's kind of like sort of regardless of the other person's response, what's happening for them, you know, how they sort of take it, you can still be sturdy and sort of clear. Actually, that makes me think I really like that word sturdy. I listened to a podcast recently, which was talking about it, actually a parenting podcast, which was quite interesting but an example that they talked about in this podcast was, like sturdy parenting in that you're sort of grounded, you're regulated, and the child in this situation, throwing a tantrum, this, that, as children are supposed to. And so the kid might be like, I really wanna have ice cream at midnight, this is so unfair, why can't I have ice cream at midnight? And then you can validate and say, I get that, I get it, who wouldn't want ice cream midnight? I mean, it's great. It would be so amazing, but we actually can't do that today because otherwise you're not gonna sleep. So you can be compassionate if that's the communication style that works for you. You can understand and hold space for someone's experience but you're still kind of clear and grounded and sturdy on your values and your boundaries and your limits as well.

Asami: I feel like you're talking about parenting, but all I can think about is couples therapy. Oh, yeah. I know you do a lot of work in couples therapy as well. So can you help us dive into that world? And you know, maybe the question can be, what are some learnings that you've taken from couples therapy about how people can build trust in relationships?

Sanduni: Um, yeah, I think that's, um, A really big theme trust in so many aspects of life when there's so much uncertainty in the world. But, um I particularly see it in couples therapy because I see couples coming in fighting about or having conflict about all kinds of things, dishes, you know, domestic things. And often when you sort of dig deeper, the core is can I trust this person? Not necessarily it may be, but not necessarily will they lie to me or, you know betray me. But more so will you be there for me? You know, if I'm really struggling, are you gonna show up for me, can I rely on you, can I count on you? And I think when we feel that people or workplaces and things around us really care and really will show up, for us, we have a sense of trust and a sense of safety that then comes with that as well. So that's probably a little bit of what I've seen in the couple's work. How do you really build a sense of trust? And then from there, the, the sort of other conflicts or other issues almost reduce because there's a deeper sense of, okay, I think I'm okay. 

Asami: That foundational trust is built. And I'm wondering like with couples in terms of building trust and this could be in any form of relationship, too. But would you say trust is based on like small actions? Or the alternate to that is like, you know, once I've had a boss in my past and they would always say, you have to trust me Asami, you have to trust me. But then I just thought that was so weird. It's like telling people to calm down, you know? Right?

Asami: You're like, if I trust you, I trust you. Yeah. And I did trust that person too. So I don't know, like how do, how does trust actually get built between two different people?

Sanduni: Yeah. Yeah. That's interesting. It's almost like telling someone to relax. Yeah. It doesn't work and try to sleep. You can't, you can't try to sleep. We just need to fall asleep. It happens. Um, and yeah, I guess with that analogy, it's sort of like setting up the conditions for relaxation to happen, for sleep to happen. 

And similarly for trust to happen as well. 

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I think it is small actions relatively consistently over time. Um inconsistency, predictability builds trust, it's sort of. If the question is, can I rely on this person, then repeated examples of reliability is probably a great way of micro sort of steps that become cumulative to build trust. Transparency, relative transparency, everyone has their own inner worlds that are completely autonomous and individual and don't necessarily have to be shared completely and wholly in a relationship. But knowing, you know, that someone, when they say something, they sort of mean it, you know, or it's, it's honest or transparent can build trust as well. And again, that sort of consistently. It is kind of just micro moves that build over time, that create like a culture, I think, of trust within the relationship. 

And I guess a role of the person wondering whether they can trust the other is a little bit of a leap of faith if it feels safe enough as well, because there's always a risk in a person, in a job, in anything in a way. If we focus on all the ways we may not be able to trust based on maybe things in our past where were betrayed and things like that, you'll probably find them, you know, you find the thing you're looking for. If you're looking for examples of where someone is mistrustful, you, you might find them through your perspective in that situation.

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So it's kind of dual, I suppose, in that way, like, we need consistency and reliability and predictability from a person to build trust that creates the safety. Yeah, but no one's perfect. You don't know once no one 100% they could forget something or make a mistake or, and then that's where it takes a little bit of a leap of faith of I'm going to attempt to trust, I'm gonna try to sort of see the best in this person and give that a go and drop some of my protectors.

Asami: Yeah, wow.

Sanduni: And if those two things can work together, then I think trust can be built.

Asami: Yeah. That's beautiful. I like that focus on consistency as well. It's like overarching, like 85% of the time you are a consistent, reliable figure. And then the 15%, of course, you got your bad days. 

Sanduni: You're human. Exactly. Yeah. 

Asami: What about, what about in the context of work? Like you kind of said, you know, there are workplaces and it's, it's a beautiful feeling to feel like I trust this workplace. I know that they’ll show up for me. For me, in other work experiences, the base level of trust I felt is like, I trust that they will pay me, you know? Like that's literally it. And the rest is like okay, I don't really have any idea whether I can trust this place or not. Do you think people can survive in workplaces that they don't trust? 

Sanduni: I mean look people can survive a lot of things.People are resilient. That's true. Yeah. Whether there's sort of consequences on their wellbeing and mental health is probably another question. Um, I think people can survive, um, but not thrive in environments like that. Yeah. Yeah. At work. Um, yeah. And in the context of work, it's interesting. You mentioned, I had trust in my previous work place that they would pay me, um and that's it, which, which sucks that that's all that was there.

Asami: And even then, they like, paid us late sometimes.

Sanduni: That's awful. That's like the worst. 

Asami: Yeah, that's literally the bare minimum of going to work, right? 

Sanduni: Oh, that's terrible. Yeah. I was thinking when you said that, that, I mean, that a whole other kind of domain of money, you know, and the sort of mixture of money in the environment of work. I mean there’s a lot of reasons why we work to get paid. Yeah. Um, and then we need money to kind of build the lives that we want to have. So, and sometimes they can be mistrust even in that domain of, like you said, paying you late, for example or feeling undervalued in terms of, you know, when I work hard, will I, will that be seen, will that be rewarded financially or will it not, you know, and so they could be a mistrust there around, around work as well. Um, yeah. So even in that domain of money, I think that that can come up. That's an important one for workplaces to build that trust that, you know, we, we care about you. We want to, we want you to feel valued and this is the way we can do that.

Asami: Yeah. What can people do to take care of themselves just to survive at work? You know, like we're talking about bare minimum stuff.

Sanduni: I think if there's anything within the workplace that keeps you going, whether it's specifics about the work you do, whether it the income you get, whether it colleagues, really leaning on that as much as you can, sort of focusing on that, utilising the resources you have within work to try and make your day kind of bearable. And then outside of work as well. You know, what does your life look like outside of work? Are there things that allow you to really switch off and still have meaning and value in your life to then kind of bear the brunt of where you're at with work at the moment? So I think those kind of self-care things as well as things that make your life worth living, you know, outside of work sort of make work more bearable if it's not really exactly what you want it to be at the moment.

Asami: Sometimes I think in this economic climate too, like I was just talking to Marcus and Oscar as well, like I spent 12 years teaching yoga back in the day. That was like my first thing. So I was like, oh, I really like yoga. Then I literally dedicated 10 years of my life. 

Sanduni: That's amazing, yeah. 

Asami: But I was reflecting, like that was. a long time ago, and then I cannot imagine being able to survive economically, like financially now, being like, oh, this is my passion. This is what I want to do. And then it makes me think work can also be this thing where you just go and you make the money so that you can support your life and your beautiful hobbies and your relationships and family outside of work. For some reason, somewhere along the way, we all got tied in with work is like this thing, that's really connected to our identity. Have you noticed trends like that?

Sanduni: I think where my mind goes is the generational kind of differences and particularly with like migrant parents as well, or first generation migrants, work meant such a different thing for them. It meant survival, it meant it doesn't matter how I feel, I've just got to do it so my family can eat, you know, so work, you could have meant status as well in terms of how accepted I am in the community. So the perception of work and what work meant was so different. I think like, I know for myself, I can relate to sort of seeing the sense of loss there of, oh work couldn't be this thing that was a passion. For example, for my parents, it had to be a duty, it has to be, you know, a survival thing in a way, but in some ways there is a ease to that, like I think it's so nuanced, right? My parents didn't expect work to be anything else in a ways. They go in, do their thing. You know my dad would have lunch with all his friends and they'd all bring like different foods from different cultures. And you know, that was almost enough for him. Yeah, the lunch break and sharing it and his colleagues and, um, he didn't really think about whether this was my deepest passion or not. And so he, I guess, didn't have the worries that come with that, but also had a lot of other worries that I'm privileged enough not to have because of the kind of life, I guess, my parents have given me in that financial stress and job security and things like that. So, you know, I guess it's two sides of the same coin. If that saying fits here.

Asami: That's what my grandpa always says. It's, it's so unprofound in English, but I'm not going to say the Japanese, but it's literally like when there's good things, there's bad things, you know? It's always, right? It's always both. Yeah.

Sanduni: Yeah. I think as well, maybe they're a little related too, like seeing that generation or for example, your parents struggle in that way with work may kind of act as a motivating factor that I don't want to just go to work and not care about it. I want it to be a purpose in a way as well. So yeah, I guess it's sort of like carrying some of their losses a little bit in that they didn't have the privilege to be able to choose whatever job they could do or even, you know, do whatever course they wanted to do purely based on interest, it always had to be kind of survival first in a way. I think also as a as a second generation migrant to this, my parents really supported me with education and things like that as well. And it’s like. I kind of want to make something of it in a way as well. Sort of use that opportunity, to have a meaningful kind of job. Uh, I think that probably ties into their experience as well.

Asami: That's beautiful. I love that we keep coming back to this theme around, it's not just individualistic, it's just about me, actually, the things that I want. I always hear a beautiful underpinning, it comes back to my family, and it looks different, very different for different people, but yeah, that’s beautiful.

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Asami: Before we go, we always have three fun questions that we ask people, and we always personalise the last question. So that one is specifically for you. So question one, and the wording is really strange, so there's context for that. But question one is this, we're talking about work. What do you think about people who are super close to their colleagues?

Sanduni: I feel like there's a, like, expectation in that question. There’s a right or wrong answer. Um, to be honest, I love it. Like I personally have had beautiful relationships with colleagues in the past. And I think working for myself now, that's probably something I miss the most about, just working alone and think part of why I want to also develop a group practise is to have colleagues again and Um, I think as a therapist as well, the work you do can be so heavy and, um, intense that I miss the lightness. I miss the light convos about MAFS or just having a coffee and nonsense. Yeah. Nonsense. Yeah. And I think I've really personally valued the close relationships I formed with colleagues and at times in my life, saw them more than I saw some of my friends because you're there every day, um and built a lot of intimacy through that as well. So I'm, I'm pro close relationships with colleagues.

Asami: I love that. Okay, next question is honestly, honestly, honestly, when was the last time you actually took a mental health day?

Sanduni: Yeah, it’s been a minute, now I think about it. 

Asami: Thank you for telling everyone that that's really good. 

Sanduni: Not for a while. I Mean and maybe part of it is because I do like I do structure a lot of leave into my calendar like in December January, I took four weeks off and I I love summer So I want to be not working during summer. So I always take a lot leave then And then the end of last year, I feel like I had had my brother got married and took a bunch of time I also had a lot So I didn't really feel like I needed it, but it's interesting you say that because I've been thinking I really need it at the moment. It's been like a really busy start to the year and I can feel it in my body. Just this sense of, um, almost like in, in effectiveness, like I'm trying to do a task and I'm just not really doing, doing it very efficiently. And it's not usually how I am. I'm like, this is my body telling me you need a break. And even just like dreading the work week and stuff like that on a Sunday. I don't usually feel that way. So if I am, then usually there's something going on for me. So I've been thinking about actually scheduling one in, in the next, um, not really a day, more of a week. 

Asami: Yeah. A mental health week. Yeah. I mean, a day is so short. 

Sanduni: And then you're waiting for the next day and you're like, Oh no, it's gone. So yeah, a whole week off where there's really nothing scheduled. Yeah. for me, feels very liberating, feels like freedom. I can just do whatever I want, let my brain do whatever it wants.

Asami: I love that. Okay. Good reminder for you. Yep. And then this is your question. Before we recorded, I asked you about your cat. So this last question is specifically for you and your cat, what has your cat taught you about boundaries? Again, it's like quite loaded, isn't it? It's like I'm sure your cat has taught you something.

Sanduni: That um no matter how many boundaries you set, they may not listen sometimes people or animals don't always respect your boundaries. And the specific thing that's come into my mind is she wakes me up at 4 a.m. because she wants food. And sometimes there's already food there, but she's like, wake up. She's just like, come on, like I've been hanging out alone. It's time to get up now. And it's dark outside. So, yeah, sometimes at four, once it was at two and I was like, come on that's still night time. So she, uh, doesn't respect my boundaries and yet I still love her. And I live with her. I don't know what that says about me.

Asami: Oh my gosh, that's beautiful. My cat is like, my cat does not respect my boundaries, but I love her. I still love her, so sweet. Bless our cats, eh? Not that I have a cat, but have a dog that's like a cat. Who also doesn't really care about me. 

But thank you so much, Sanduni. That was like, it was lovely to have you in the studio. It was a beautiful chat. I think we went through like relationships in all forms. We kind of touched into work as well and really complex, annoying work relationships to and lovely to hear about your cat. We always love animals at Shapes and Sounds.

Sanduni: I should’ve brought her in.

Asami: Ha ha ha! But everyone, thank you so much for tuning into this convo. We would love for you to find us on Instagram and LinkedIn and YouTube at Just Shapes and Sounds. 

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You can like and subscribe to us on your favourite podcast app. Download this episode for offline listening. There was so much in there. So use it to reference back when you're struggling with work. You can leave us a review on Spotify. and share this episode with your friends because word of mouth really helps to de-stigmatise mental health in Asian communities. And if you wanna connect with Sanduni, you can find Sanduni on our Asian Australian mental health practitioner list over on our website, justshapesandsounds.com. So everyone, stay safe, stay silly and see you soon. 

This is a production from Shapes and Sounds. It’s hosted by Asami Koike, Marcus Lai and Oscar Abe, and produced by Yeo Choong. We’re proudly supported by the Victorian Department of Health’s Diverse Communities Program. All thoughts and ideas you hear are independently ours and our guests’.

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