Navigating gossip, bigotry and self-criticism. The Asian mental health podcast episode 21

The Shapes and Sounds team share workplace survival stories, how would you deal with these situations? Asami investigates an insulting rumour, Oscar confronts his racist manager and Marcus duels his harshest critic–himself.

Watch the episode below or find us on Spotify or Apple Podcasts!

The transcript is available below.

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We’d love to hear your thoughts and ideas about Asian mental health. Find us online at ⁠@justshapesandsounds⁠ or ⁠justshapesandsounds.com⁠

This podcast is supported by the Victorian Department of Health via the Diverse Communities Program. All information provided is general information only and should not be used in lieu of professional advice.

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Transcript

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Shapes and Sounds acknowledges the Traditional Owners of the lands on which we’re recording and connecting with you from, the Wurundjeri Woi-wurrung people of the Kulin Nation and we pay our respects to Elders past and present.

Asami: Hi, Marcus. Hi, Oscar. So in the first episode of this season, we spoke a bit about how therapists or mental health practitioners have really poor mental health, not always, but in some cases, yes. And I just want to say, like, I think a lot of people that would be listening to this podcast will be wanting to connect with a therapist. So maybe they want to hear that therapists are doing things to take care of themselves, which they are. Don't worry everyone. and also... I think another part of our listenership are people who are interested in pursuing a career in mental health too. So I t hink for those people, I want to reassure you that there are lots of ways in which you can take care of yourself too.

Oscar: Absolutely, and it's not just mental health practitioners as well as clients as well. I think everyone is struggling a bit in work, including in my field. We mentioned that engineers have really poor mental health as well.

Marcus: Yeah. So we just really wanted to have this episode just to describe and discuss the sort of strategies we have to stay well in our job. So yeah, let's find out what we do too.

MX - AMH theme

Asami: Tell me of a recent time when work was really hard and you felt like it affected your mental health. For example, I'll tell you my story first. So as you know, I do halftime at Shapes and Sounds, halftimes at another job. So I'm like my own boss here, but then an employee at my other job. And this is like a really intense story that just happened recently, like literally like two weeks ago. 

So someone told me, that other people on the team were saying that I didn't bring any value to that team.

Marcus: Wow.

Asami: And that like, I don't do anything.

Marcus: Oh my gosh, that's so high school. 

Oscar: Group project drama.

Asami: That does not sound like my colleagues in that role. I was like, what?!

MX in - Tomorrow I’ll be gone

Back in the day, I would have just gone home and like cried and like been so ashamed to show up at work to be like, oh my God, everyone thinks I'm doing such a bad job. Like maybe I should just quit. But instead what I did was on Monday, I went into work and I like went up to all my colleagues and I was like, have you been saying this about me? 

And everyone was like, what? Everyone was like no, like we've never said that. Yeah. And I believe them because they're all like really sweet, you know? So anyway, the journey is now I will go and have a difficult conversation with the first person and to be like.

Marcus: So you found out who it is.

Asami: Yeah, like the original person that told me “people are saying things about you”

Marcus: oh, right yep yep, following

Asami: It came first in an email. And then I tried to call the person and then they refused to pick up. So then I was all right, I understand that. It's not a ‘me’ problem. It's like something else is going on. 

Marcus: Yeah, like they're not telling you to try to resolve the issue they're bringing up. It's like they are creating a problem. Yep, I'm following.

MX out

Asami: So it's no longer a silent hustle. Like I will never internalise things like this anymore. It's like, if you have a problem with me, tell me. You know? And then we'll- 

Oscar: That sounds so stressful. 

Asami: It was so stressful

Marcus: That's crazy.

Asami: Is it crazy? 

Marcus: It's so crazy. 

Asami: Would it upset you? Yeah. I was upset.

Oscar: And I'll be completely honest. Like that, just you saying like, oh, now I'm gonna have to have a hard conversation. That already just gives me anxiety just hearing about it. That just makes me… tense

Marcus: I know, I would not have the courage to do that.

Asami: Do you know what's weird, though? Now I feel excited about it. 

Marcus: Empowered. 

Asami: Now I'm like, all right, I'm ready. Let me, like, get my suit on.

Marcus: Whoa.

Asami: That was stressful. And I think remember how I told you, like, I've never had so many pimples in my life. But that was like one reason too. So I think like, for me, I always manifest stress in physical symptoms. At one point, it was like, I get lots of like cramps and like leg cramps, and like, I think they're running injuries, but they're usually more like stress related. Or I've never really like broken out on my skin, but that was something that happened. I was like, okay, I better sort myself out. 

And I think in terms of like the strategy, if there's a problem, attack it head on, don't shy away. I think it also is like if people are saying, “oh, we don't know what your value is on the team”. It's like, you have to remember that like, it doesn't matter what people say, like you are valuable and also doesn't it matter like you have a contract for a specific amount of time. So who cares? Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

I also heard another strategy, which I think is really interesting. Like, you know, when something really stresses you out and you feel your heart starting to race and you're like, Oh my God, it's happening. Then someone said that you should move your body to like match your heart rate. 

Oscar: That's so interesting. 

Asami: Like stress is if you were just sitting there and every, your body is going through a stress response. But imagine if you just stood up and did pushups or star jumps. So then like naturally your heart rate would pick up. Does that make sense? 

Marcus: So it's like that sort of feeling and the heart racing then becomes like, it's because of the exercise, not like the stress kind of.

Asami: Exactly, so your body's probably like moving through a stress process normally. It's just like, okay, I'm exercising so my heart rate increases.

Oscar: Yeah, yeah.

Asami: And then you naturally move it away.

Oscar: It doesn't actually regulate it afterwards. Like, I don't know after you do like the 1000 star jumps or whatever, but does that help you bring it back down afterwards?

Asami:  I think it would. But it would probably depend on, like, how long, right? Anyway. That was a weird story. Yeah, that's so crazy. But what about you?

Marcus: Well, I do have a recent story too actually that was quite stressful, so my other job is working in research as a research assistant and I've kind of started a new project and the first thing I was trying to work out was all of the statistics to run the results. So to do that I had to use like this code and like the statistical software to sort of just like analyse and see like what the results were saying, but it took me two, three weeks and I was like, I'm not getting any of the statistics. And it was, I don't know, it sounds really silly now that I'm thinking about it. But at the moment I was like, now I just feel so stupid because they've employed me to do this job that I can't do. And I don't know who I can ask for help. I don't know what I'm gonna do. Every day I go to work, I dread it. Cause I'm like, now I'm going to have to look at all this code that I don't understand. And yeah, it was really, really affecting my mental health. And I think it was affecting it so much because it was defeating my self-worth so much. Every night I was in bed and being like, I can't relax until I figure this out.  

Asami: Oh, wow.

Marcus: It was like quite bad.

Asami: And then if you couldn't work it out, then what happened? You just like, like it keeps you up at night.

Marcus: It wouldn't keep me up at night. It would take, it was affecting my sleep a little bit. And usually I'm a very good sleeper. So like when I know my sleep is like messed up, that's when I kind of there's something wrong.

Asami: Yep. Yep. And did you work it out? Like what, what happened to the actual stats?

Marcus: Well, okay, the resolution was I just spoke to my supervisor and then she was like, it's okay… don't worry about it

Asami: Oh my god.

Marcus: So, all along it was a me problem, so...

Asami: How long did that last for?

Marcus: I wanna say like two, three weeks, and I don't know, I think a part of it was also like I was trying to rush and like retrospectively thinking about it, I think it was me who was rushing it, I just like was in such a rush to produce something to show her, I was like, oh my God, like every day I go to work and I'm producing nothing, like I feel so stupid.

Asami: Yeah.

Marcus: Yeah.

Asami: That's so hard.

Marcus: Yeah, but it's okay, it's in the past now.

Asami: I'm sure your supervisor was like, oh, that's fine.

Marcus: She was like, yeah, don't worry about it. So maybe if I spoke to her earlier and found out that it wasn't that big of a deal, then I could have not been so stressed. But yeah, I don't know. It wa s actually affecting me quite badly, like more than I thought it would. But I was like quite upset, like thinking about like not being able to show that I'm smart to her, I dunno. Especially because it was kind of like the first project that I am kind of leading. So I was like, this is my chance to show her I can do something. So it's a lot of like how I've defined my self-worth and all of that. Like that's kind of played into like why it's been so stressful.

Oscar: Is that part of the reason why you're rushing?

Marcus: I guess so. And it's like, I think a few, not a few weeks ago, but maybe last week I was thinking about like, why I feel the need to rush and like sort of reassuring myself that like, there is no rush to sort of try to understand everything. Cause it's, like, I've only started looking into all this research, like for the past half a year or whatever. And it was like, why is it that I've been doing this for like 20 years or whatever? Obviously she knows more than me. So it's just like, why am I rushing to try to to understand everything? putting unnecessary pressures on myself. So, yeah, like, I'm trying to think of it in that sense.

Asami: How did you come around to that though? You know?

Marcus: How did I come around?

Asami: Like, was it as simple as your supervisor being like, oh, it's fine. And then you were like, oh my God, I feel great. Or did you do certain things

Marcus: Well, I did persevere to try to figure it out, and I think eventually got to a point where I did figure it out, ‘cause it's not like I've never faced a challenge doing coding or anything with research like in assignments and stuff, but I just didn't know why this one was affecting me more. So I was just trying to reflect on why was this one really, really messing up my mental health. So yeah it was that, and then speaking to my supervisor, like finding out it wasn't like that big of a problem and also just like talking about it in therapy helped. So yeah.

MX in - Some Kind Of Friend

Also I've been trying to do a lot more reflection. Every time I get stressed about it and take the stress home with me, I just try to remind myself that there's more important things in life than work. 

Asami: Like what? haha

Marcus: I don't know, like sleep or something. I'm like there's other things that I should care about in life that are not work. So I was trying to reappraise.

Asami: Also like, as the other supervisor in your life, like how amazing is it that someone is so passionate about their work and like so dedicated and like that it ties into your self-worth and you do an amazing job, just so you know. 

Marcus: Thanks. I hate compliments. You know that.

Asami: Yeah, yeah. That makes you feel really awkward.

Marcus: I'm sorry.

MX out

Asami: I want to hear from Oscar too.

Oscar: Yeah. Thinking back, so I, I've previously had a job in hospitality, um, like, you know, restaurant service kind of stuff. And I think the first thing that made me really realise the severity of this situation was like, I came home and I was like trying to get to sleep after going to work and, um like the images of the day just kept on playing out in my mind before I could get to sleep like no matter what I did, the last things I'd see before I could actually get to sleep were just like, you know, moments throughout the day, just playing on repeat. It's so scary. And I was trying so hard to like not have that. Like I try meditation, I try all these things, but that was a pretty obvious cue, which was like, yeah, you've got to like… this is, this was affecting you. 

So, I mean, if, if you've worked in hospo, you that there's some interesting characters around. I had a manager who was a like a British dude. He was a bit older and when I first met him, he was a bit sarcastic and he sort of had that like edgy humour. And I was like, okay, like whatever, like, you know, whatever, haha. And slowly I came to realise like Oh, like his edgy humour wasn't like an ironic edgy humour, he like actually believed what he was joking about and what he was joking you about was really racist stuff. Like one of the things he said, he said colonisation was the best thing to happen to India. And I was like, to a bunch of people in our Nepalese kitchen, I was just like, that is just really intense. I was just taken back, I didn't really know what to say. I was, what? 

Asami: What do you say to that? Right? What do you say? Especially in the moment. And what did the other people you're saying, like he said it to some Nepalese workers.

Oscar: I think they brushed it off for the most part. Yeah. But yeah, in that moment, I felt that sort of like wash of feeling where you're like uncomfortable, like you're just suddenly really uncomfortable. Cause it made me realise like all of those interactions before he wasn't making like an ironic joke about like, Oh, you know, racism is bad or whatever. He was just racist. Usually in those moments, I like always freeze, like I freeze and I don't do anything and I just let it happen. And I just. let it brush past because it's for me it's easier than having to confront what's happening in that point in time and I don't think you have the responsibility of having to do that.

Asami: Yeah, it's not on you to educate others, right? Exactly, yeah.

Oscar: You’re already going through an experience in that moment, you don't also have to, you know, really command the situation as well. But that time I actually kind of feel a little bit proud about it. I kind of like actually I don't know I just locked in. I kind I just like called him out on it to be fair to the guy. He'd have an argument about it as much as I completely disagree with his ideologies. It wasn't just like no, that's stupid Like, you know, he had his reasonings, which I completely disagreed with.

Asami: Yeah, right. But you engaged in a discourse.

Oscar: But at least we engage in a discourse. And I think like, I'm pretty, not like happy about that situation, but just like, I think that I have some sort of pride about it because previously I felt so hopeless in situations like that, where it's just like it's sort of that shower conversation thing where it was like, oh, in that argument, I could have said this and this and that.

Asami: And it haunts you forever.

Oscar: But I actually got to say some of my points. Maybe it wasn't the most articulate or whatever, but I still got to say something. And I think that that was a good thing. If I had more capacity at that point in time, it would have been better to slowly attempt to change this guy's fundamental assumptions about stuff. And I guess that would be like the right thing to do in a situation. But I don't think we all have that capacity. And honestly, I just couldn't be stuffed. I left partially because of that just because I was like I don't really want to be in a workplace like this

Asami: You actually left that work.

Oscar: Yeah. I left the job. It might not have been the best solution to the problem, but it worked for me. 

Asami: That's a strategy. 

Oscar: And I mean, those are the reasons as well. So I was like, you know what? That's enough of a reason for me.

Marcus: Just like hearing you talk about that, it just reminds me of my hospo experiences as well. And like, I've had so many similar experiences and like I remember I was working this other hospitality job, not the same one that I mentioned in the first episode. Another not so great one. I remember this one time and I was just at work and my boss was like, oh, you have to take your piercings off. And I was like oh, OK, like maybe it's like a health safety thing. So I took it off. 

But then this girl comes in like she's working as well. And she's got like heaps of piercings. And then I was like, oh, did the boss ever tell you to take them off? Like she told me to take it off and then she was like no, like never, never heard that. And I'm like, what? So it was really weird. So yeah, when the manager came in, I was like, did you tell her to take her piercings off too? And she's like, no, like she can wear it because she's a girl and you're a guy, so you can't.

Asami: What?!

Marcus: And then I think like I did like one other shift afterwards and I left. So I don't know, like hospitality, I feel like you just get so much like stuff like that, that is like, what the hell? It's like, why am I getting told all this really, really nasty stuff?

Asami: unethical… or just like plain disrespect yeah.

MX in - Driving Down Silk Road

Marcus: When that was sort of happening, I didn't really let it affect me that much because I kind of knew like, yeah, it's just my part-time job, like, managers are weird. So I was, like whatever, like she's weird, doesn't reflect anything about me. So it's like, whatever, I'll just let her do that. But on the other hand, when I started working in research, I guess that kind of stress was so different. It was so much just tied to like self-worth and self-criticism that that was never really a thing in hospo for me, so.

Asami: That's true, that's true. Cause hospo's kind of like, it's so hard and you have to physically turn up and like long hours. But white collar work is.

Marcus: It's like brain and like your self-worth and like, I don't know.

MX out

Oscar: I mean, we mentioned a bit about self-criticism previously, but I guess we didn't ask this question. How do you deal with that self-criticism?

Marcus: Okay, this is hard, and I think this is more me reflecting out loud for myself to hear. But I think it's just so important that you make time for yourself outside of work and have other things that are meaningful for you. outside of work, because it's like, when you care enough about your work, eventually it will get done. I think I kind of touched on this in the first season. It's like if something's meaningful for you, just trust that you will eventually have the time to finish it and it will be done. So it's, like, you kind of taking it home and stressing isn't really helping that natural sort of process of, like getting things done, if that makes sense. I think that's a me kind of thing.

Asami: Like having interests outside of work and of life and identity.

Marcus: And also just accepting that things will turn out the way they should be kind of thing.

Asami: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Marcus: Yeah, I think that's sort of how I deal with it.

Asami: My process has changed a lot over the years and recently it's changed even more. Like kind of shifted into bro wellness, but you know, that's, that was a whole other episode. No, but, um, you know how, um there's concepts like every day, if you can just be like 1% better than yesterday, then you're progressing, you know, so I think sometimes, especially like just say running a business and you have to have these big goals and you have like these big 10 year kind of things like I want it to be like this but sometimes that really stresses me out too because I can't see the middle like what am I going to do tomorrow to do that thing but then if I bring it back to that 1% thing I think it's like “Atomic Habits” have you heard this like James Clare is the author yeah it's a bit like productivity, like. bro things, fitness, peak performance-y. It's very interesting when you dive into it, but the idea of like, do you know what? Tomorrow, I'm just going to do like a little bit that progresses me towards the thing I'm thinking of. And I'm trying to approach and just like a bit at a time, who knows if it's 1%. But I'm attempting that. I think it helps with self criticism. It's like, okay, you didn't reach your five year goal. but guess what, you did something. Well done.

Marcus: Yeah, you just used one thing today.

Asami: Yeah. And I showed up and I tried. Maybe it's like a connection to the process or something. I don't know. 

MX in - Flying Squirrel

What about you, Oscar? How do you deal with self criticism?

Oscar: Um, for the most part, I just don't. But for me, when I think about self criticism, I, I just try and be better, to be honest. I know it's not like the most healthy way to approach it, but I think it's a mix of trying to prove myself wrong, but also accepting that I've got more time in the future to improve as well. So it doesn't need to all happen now.

Asami: I love that, so it's like you want to prove yourself wrong.

Oscar: Yeah, but it doesn't need to be now.

Asami: Hmm.

MX out

[BREAK]

Marcus: So Oscar, you were talking a lot about like self-criticism. Can you just elaborate on that? Like what the self- criticism was like, how it was affecting you and everything?

Oscar: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I guess the example is, is that, as per usual, most of my frustrations come from trying to make clothes. For my friend, I was making some dust bags. And a dustbag is basically a bag for clothes that keeps the dust off of it. And the timeline was pretty short. But I was confident I could get it done. Um, and I think like as I was doing it, good ideas would come up, but they weren't perfect. I only had a week to come up with a design and make them. And I feel like, um, I just got really self-critical about the designs that I like coming, I was coming up with and how, you know, I should be further along, in the process by now. I should have been able to do this way quicker. Um, not really being proud of my work, things like that. Um. And I think that... I don't really know what to do about that feeling in particular, like it is just a thing where it's like, yeah, I'm, you know, I can do better than this, but you also have to acknowledge the context and, um, I guess like where you are in that point of time. And I was like, I've got a week to do it. I'm not going to make the most beautiful piece of work. I think this happens with a lot of creative projects is just like, it's never going to be perfect. In fact, it might not even be amazing or good, but just... making it and then finishing it is way more worthy than a half-finished, almost perfect work.

Asami: and just meet the deadline.

Oscar: And in the end, I think I just came around to accepting that it wasn't bad, it did the job, and it was a good enough design. I was like, I don't know, I'm not overly proud of it, but I'm also not like, damn, shucks, I really stuffed this up, you know? So I guess my process of dealing with self-criticism is always to remind myself just to, you don't need to achieve perfect, you just need to get the job done which is way, way, way easier to say than it is to do. Yeah. And I think that's why I'm like, I don't know how to do it, because it doesn't come easily to me.

Marcus: I know Asami, you've juggled a lot throughout your career. So what's your experience with managing everything, all the pressures, all the self-criticism?

Asami: I think it has been such a long journey and one that is not pretty as well, like it's not actually like, oh, and then I didn't, you know, really like accepted myself. It's not like that at all. It's like I've had spectacular moments of burnout and like really intense burnout, like burnout being like when I burnt out in my role in 2019. Um, unfortunately we went straight into COVID lockdowns too. So I think that like really complicated things, but then since then I've never gone back into direct clinical work. Like that's how burnt out I got being like, I don't think I can handle doing like direct therapeutic work five days a week, you know? So it's like some of the negative work experiences have really like shifted my career in so many different ways and then like, you're like, okay. 

Then I will progress into founding this organisation, Shapes and Sounds, and running the organisation, and building a team, and growing this vision and mission. And then I think that also comes with its own pressures as well. I touched on it last season, but there's a lot of financial instability, especially in the first three years. You don't know what you're doing. I don't have a business background, so it took a long time to work out actually how to run and operate a business. So then trying to work out how to do that, stay alive, which means like doing part-time work as well. So then you're juggling like, in terms of time, there's a lot of time that has to be spent working, doing different things and wearing different hats. 

And the question was like, how did I deal with it all, right? Yeah. I just looked at you, I was like how do I do it? Nowadays I feel really good. I think it has a lot to do with like the different levels of health and stability that you need to implement into your life. Like, as you know, I do a lot of like training and running. And I think that has built up so much stamina to be able to work long hours. I don't think I really had the stamina to begin with. Like, obviously endurance running makes you run for a long time. It like builds your brain up to endure a lot stuff as well.

Oscar: Does that help you against burnout as well?

Asami: I think so. And I say, I think, so because it's not the endurance running that teaches you about burnout. But when you start training, you have to spend a lot of time and energy on recovery, which is like all that you're foam rolling and you're stretching and you are blah, blah. And you're like, you're, I don't know, what else? Like eating well and sleeping enough and all that kind of stuff. And so then it really highlights when you're not doing all of that.

Marcus: Mmm.

Asami: And so then if you have all those bits in place, then everything is actually better. Like if you sleep eight hours every single night, then you do, surprisingly, you feel better.

Marcus: Who would have thought?

Asami: right? And then you can go into high stress environments and then you know how your body knows how to recover and recoup from that. So it could be like the stress could be from training or the stress, could be, from like a high stress work environment. So I think like I've built a stronger nervous system over time. So that's been one thing. Um, oh yes. I wanted to tell you about these three questions that come from the world of like endurance running.

Marcus: Okay…

Asami: And they really helped me a lot because I think they, they help one for running, but two, it can really help in terms of like, if you are trying to do like purpose-driven work and work that's meaningful to you. I have to tell you the questions, otherwise it doesn't make sense, right? 

MX in - Tomorrow I’ll Be Gone

The three questions that you must ask yourself, and I'm going to ask you both is one, what do you want? You know, and that's the hardest question. You don't define what you want, right. Like. You could be like, I want to be a clin psych or very simply could be like, Oh, I wanna run a marathon.

Asami: Step two, you have to ask yourself, how bad do you want it?

Marcus: Okay.

Asami: Cause it's like, I might be like, yeah, I want to run a marathon, but actually… I don't know.

Marcus: I don't want it that bad.

Asami: Yeah, like I'm pretty happy running like non marathon distances. Like I'm actually really healthy and like, I'm really well, you know? So there's that, right? Like, how bad do you want to be a Clin psych. You're like “hmmm”. and then the third question is this language is a bit intense, but the language is like, how much are you willing to suffer to get the thing you want? In other words, it could be like, what are you willing to sacrifice to get the thing you want? 

If you ask yourself those three questions, in terms of anything related to life, it's like so clarifying. Because it's, like, with the marathon training, if I go back to a very simple example about marathon training. You essentially have to train like six days a week, like two workouts a day, like a lot, right? And that means you have to eat a lot. You have to sleep a lot you need to put your feet up. Like there's a lot you can't do. You have to sacrifice a lot. And I personally wouldn't sacrifice running Shapes and Sounds at this stage to do the marathon. Maybe in five years time or something, right? Then it's so easy. Once you work that out.

Marcus: Like what really means something to you.

Asami: It's like so easy to organise your brain and then you're like, oh, this is important. This is not.

Oscar: Like your priorities, like organising all of that.

MX out

Marcus: I have a question though, when you were talking about how badly do you want it, do you think you could want something too badly? Because I feel like that can be bad too.

Asami: What do you mean too badly?

Marcus: Because then it's like, if I'm thinking about how badly I want something or say my career, it's I want to achieve it, but I'm not like I want it so, so bad. Because I think to want it so, so bad is to then just attach your whole personality to that thing, right? And I don't necessarily think that's healthy.  

Oscar: I mean, you can want something a lot and it not be good for you and that you can want something that is good for. I feel like that's hard because then you're attaching desire to health. I think that's a dangerous, I feel like it's a dangerous 

Marcus: like what's a healthy level of like, you want it bad. I don't know.

Asami: I don't know, like, do you have an example, Oscar?

Oscar: Oh, not really. I mean, I'm like sort of the opposite. Like even on the first question, I've kind of stumped you're like, I don't know. What do you want? It's really a hard question to answer. 

Asami: It's so hard. It's actually the hardest question. 

Oscar: I mean you could reflect on it being something about the times. Like, oh, we currently get to see so many different ways of living. How so many people live their lives that we have a bigger scope of what we can want. and so It's sort of like a choice paralysis. Oh, which one am I going to choose? Which one's like the objectively right way? Yeah. And I think I deal with that a lot. Like I'm a big choice paralysis kind of person. 

Marcus: I don't know, I think it's a tricky question, and I think, it could be unhealthy. Just, just, just my, just just my opinion.

Oscar: I think it's a good tool. I just don't think you should base your whole personality. Like you shouldn't.

Asami: Oh no, that’s me

Oscar: No shade, no shade.

Asami: Kidding, I'm kidding, yeah.

Marcus: I don't know.

Asami: It's very interesting though, isn't it? It's so confronting to be like, what do you want? You're like, oh no, what to I want? It's actually, that's the hardest part.

Marcus: And to ask yourself how badly you want it is so confronting too, I feel.

Asami: Really? Yeah, I don't know. You're like stuck on question two.

Marcus: Yeah, that's the question I'm stuck

Oscar: I think it's about competency, because I feel like I've always related all like, what do I want to do and can I do it in the sense of like, like am I competent enough to do it? Am I like smart enough or do I have the skills, et cetera, et cetera. Whereas this one frames it purely out of desire.

Asami: Oh, yeah, yeah.

Oscar: In that sense, it's like, sure, I might be really good at a certain thing, but like, what if I'm just not passionate enough of a person? I hear you. Do you know what I mean? It feels like my value is now condensed into my desire and my passion.

Asami: No, I think this is the underlying text to all of this. The underlying text is if you want something, you can go and get it. Right. It's very like neoliberalism. Again, maybe it's like too bro wellness. But do you know what I mean? 

Marcus: Ah okay wait I get it

Asami: The subtext is you can do whatever you want. So what do you want? Yeah. Yeah. Oh no, that's what I've ascribed to.

Marcus: Yeah, okay, I get that. Because in that setting, then it's like how much you believe in yourself.

Asami: Yeah, fundamentally. Yeah. If you put your mind to something, you can do it. So that's very like, it's like a super privileged way of looking at things too.

Marcus: I still think there's some like validity to it. I agree. You should think about it like I'm just thinking more on the upper end between like this is a healthy amount of wanting something really badly versus this is all of my life's purpose and if I don't achieve this, there is no meaning to life kind of thing. I was just thinking about that end.

Asami: Maybe it's number three then. How much are you going to sacrifice? Because that will clarify. I guess so. I would give up everything.

Marcus: If you want something badly, but you sacrifice a healthy amount of things in your life. 

Asami: Right? I guess so. That's what the question's asking.

Marcus: Okay, I'll just think about it.

Asami: Okay, everyone, that's a lot of homework for everyone, myself included being like, Oh, what are my underlying beliefs?

MX in - Camels in My Backyard

Asami: I think Shapes and Sounds is like, obviously a place where we have discussions like this, and we kind of like, try and navigate everything into conversations about mental health and wellbeing. And we draw on our weird life experiences as well, as you've heard, like drawing on work, hobbies, all that kind of stuff to kind of try and tie it all together, if those three questions were really like stressful for some people. know that there is always help. And at Shapes and Sounds, we have a practitioner list, a list of 100 Asian Australian therapists that are really interested in culturally responsive practise and supporting you. And you can bring, be like, I heard this on the podcast, they have like messed up my life.

Oscar: I've now gotten so existential.

Asami: Yeah. Please help me navigate this. I'm laughing, but you know, it's a serious thing. It's real. It's really. That's why I go to therapy too. I ask like crazy questions like this. Other things that we have, we have things like the Creative Community Care, which is creative arts therapy workshops for international students from Asia that we run with Latrobe Uni and the government. And mental health practitioners, if you are like me, you tipping over towards burnout. Know that we have a community of practise. We're ready to support you either through our network or through trainings as well. So you can find all that over on our website and we'll link everything below.

MX out

Oscar: before we go, we have three fun questions to ask at the end of every episode. And as always, we personalise the third question. Marcus, it's your turn to answer these questions. This week, we'd like to ask you.

Asami: Oh, I'm going to ask this one. My original question. Let me put on my best Marcus voice. What do you think about people who are too close to their colleagues?

Marcus: You see, when I asked that question, I didn't really think about what I would say as an answer, but I guess you can be too close and it can be… was it you that, it was you, that was kind of talking about like, working in mental health and then you're just all kind of like, in the mess of it all together.

Asami: always and like hanging out over the week.

Marcus: Yeah. And I think it's good to have a separate support network outside of work, just so it's like the physical actual separation is good for your brain sometimes. Just because like, I don't know, it's hard to switch off if you're kind of still around the same people. I don't know. That's my answer.

Asami: I like that. Next, when was the last time you actually took a mental health day?

Marcus: Well, I've never like taken a day off, like as in I kind of like woken up, felt like bad, and then been like, I need to take a day of. But I have had like a, I guess you can still call it a mental health day. Like I had a spa day last Tuesday, which I planned two months ago.

Asami: A scheduled mental health day.

Marcus: Yeah, because it was like a small voucher for my friends for our birthday last year. And I was like, I will plan and make sure this day happens. So I planned it in December last year and then it happened last week in February. Did it help? I think I would prefer if it was more than a day, but like, I guess, yeah, that's yeah, but it was helpful.

Asami: It was like 70%. Yeah, it was good. That sounds luxurious.

Oscar: Okay, for your third and final most personalised question, when you're not studying, what will your self-worth be based on? 

Marcus: Oh! That is… That… Oh, okay.

Oscar: Yeah, in quotation marks, shade intended like.

Marcus: So as a bit of a context as well, when I finish uni this year, I plan on taking a gap year. So I think this is something I do wanna think about. Like, what do I do outside of uni? Like, what brings my life value outside of Uni? Yeah. So I guess this is something I'll think about, but hopefully I find something. I mean, like I enjoy things outside of university, but like to this degree where it's like, when I won't be studying, it's… Yeah, I don't know.

Asami: I think there's a lot outside of your work and Uni. We see it. There is!

Marcus: There is. Yeah, there is but

Asami: but your self-worth is tied into your.

Marcus: study.

Asami: Yeah, interesting. Yeah, I'll let you guys know next year. Existential Marcus coming up.

Marcus: So I'll reflect on it and let you guys know.

Asami: Thank you. We'll be waiting. We will catch you next year. 

MX in - AMH theme

So thank you everyone for joining us for this episode. You can find us on Instagram and LinkedIn and YouTube @JustShapesAndSounds. Please subscribe to us on your favourite podcast app. Download this episode for offline listening. And lastly, please share this episode with your friends because word of mouth really helps to destigmatize mental health within Asian communities.

Marcus: So yeah, everyone, stay well. No! I said it wrong! Sorry. Not stay well, don't stay well! So everyone, stay safe, 

Oscar: Stay silly. 

Asami: See you soon.

Asmi: Ew! Terrible!

Marcus: I've been numb to it, so I'm fine saying it. 

This is a production from Shapes and Sounds. It’s hosted by Asami Koike, Marcus Lai and Oscar Abe, and produced by Yeo Choong. We’re proudly supported by the Victorian Department of Health’s Diverse Communities Program. All thoughts and ideas you hear are independently ours and our guests’.

MX out

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