The non-linear path from education to employment. The Asian Mental Health Podcast Episode 18

Marcus and Asami are joined by Rachel Lim, psychologist and clinical lead from Headspace Syndal. With a strong passion for youth mental health, Rachel tells us about the evolution of her own career goals and how a false start at uni actually led her to doing the work she wanted to do.

Watch the episode below or find us on Spotify or Apple Podcasts!

The transcript is available below.

Help destigmatise mental health conversations in Asian communities by downloading this episode on your favourite app and sharing it with your friends and family.

We’d love to hear your thoughts and ideas about Asian mental health. Find us online at ⁠@justshapesandsounds⁠ or ⁠justshapesandsounds.com⁠

For more info about Rachel’s work and mental health support for young people, visit headspace.org.au

This podcast is supported by the Victorian Department of Health via the Diverse Communities Program. All information provided is general information only and should not be used in lieu of professional advice.

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Transcript

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Shapes and Sounds acknowledges the Traditional Owners of the lands on which we’re recording and connecting with you from, the Wurundjeri Woi-wurrung people of the Kulin Nation and we pay our respects to Elders past and present.

Asami: So Marcus, do you know what you're going to do when you finish uni?

Marcus: I guess I have like an expectation of what I want to do, but it probably won't pan out the way I'm sort of expecting. I just guess like with my career path, like there's so much uncertainties, like whether or not I get into post-grad, what sort of placements I do, whether or not I like those placements, the sort of job opportunities I get, and I know that's like five years down the track, so who knows?

Asami: And honestly, even just listening to you talk about this, even though I'm not studying, it stresses me out. But does it stress you out and affect your mental health and wellbeing?

Marcus: Yeah, definitely does. I don't know, I just think because psych is a career path that requires a lot of sacrifice and even just that delayed gratification kind of thinking, you don't really train until your fifth year of studying. So yeah, I don't know. 

Sometimes I do have to sacrifice a lot of self-care and doing fun things and that kind of stuff. And again, it's like the uncertainty with it as well, not really knowing whether or not all the hard work you put in, in the first like four years but or not that will lead you to the career that um you want to do so yeah I don't know.

Asami: Apparently what you're supposed to do in terms of work and you're like, oh, I don't know what I want to do is look to people 10 to 15 years ahead of you in that career that you want and then ask them lots of questions. So I've specially prepared a future ‘you’ for this episode.

Marcus: Perfect! 

MX - AMH Theme

Asami: Let’s spend today's conversation just kind of navigating that uncertainty and like trying to shed some light on it, like especially that bit around education into employment.

Marcus: Yeah, so just to introduce Rachel, Rachel is the clinical lead at Headspace Syndal, which is a branch of the National Youth Mental Health Foundation. She is a clinical psychologist by training with extensive experience in hospital, educational, not-for-profit and private practice settings. And at Headspace, she provides leadership and supervision to the team and ensures young people have access to mental health support. So working with young people is her area of passion. Welcome, Rachel. Thank you for joining us today.

Rachel: Thank you so much, Asami. Thank you, Marcus. Pumped to be here.

Marcus: So we'll just dive straight into the first question. So we've heard that you had some sort of like uncertainty during your studies, like during uni and everything, and sort of like how you transitioned into employment as well. So can you just tell us a little bit about your journey, like maybe like from high school?

Rachel: Totally, yeah, I was born here, studied here, did my year 12 back in the days when they called it an ENTER score, not an ATAR score, I don't know how. 

Asami: They were like, what's an ENTER score? 

Marcus: Yeah, I was like, what is that? 

Rachel: Um, really showing my age, um, but yeah, that, that was, um, you know, high school for me, um, I picked year 12 subjects that, um, I really loved and that I was sort of curious about for, you know, future career opportunities. Um, and yeah, I pushed myself pretty hard during, I mean, I want to say year 11 and year 12, but honestly. I've probably pushed myself since primary school, really passionate about, you know, my academic performance and just doing well and thriving in that space. Um, and then after school, um, I got the ATAR that, or the ENTER that I wanted to get into Arts/Law. Okay. So that's where I kind of started.

Asami: I started a degree as well that was completely unrelated to what I'm doing now and I essentially just took the thing that my ENTER as well, don't worry, I’m ENTER too, like the highest thing that I could get into. And so then I wanted to ask you like, was that the reason why you chose Arts Law or was there another reason why you did Arts Law? 

Rachel: Yeah, Look, it was a little bit of a combo for me. Um, I love words. I love talking. I love all these things that I thought law would be about. So there was a part of me that was like, yeah, I think that could be like what I'm cut out to do. And part of it was probably also just feeling like feels prestigious. Feels fancy, feels nice. And, um, bit of combo factors, those two things, um, made me put that down as my first preference and kind of aim for that. That's like, you know, the sticky note on the wall. When you're like studying at home, you're like, okay, this is my inspo. Let's aim for this. 

Asami: How did that go from arts law to psychology?

Rachel: I was just scraping by in law. I was like, Oh my goodness, I'm not very good at this. And also, I don't think I love it either. Like, it was such a weird experience to go in with this fixed idea of what my uni experience was going to be like, what the, you know, the content of this course was going to be like, how I was going to thrive like I did in high school, you know all this stuff, this very different experience of going, I'm getting like 51s, 52s. It's like they're passing me just to like go, we feel sorry for you, but you're right on the line. And so I kind of stuck it out for three years because I was like, but this is what I was gonna do. Like this is what I'm doing, right? This is what I've aimed for. This is why I had a sticky note on my wall, you know, all that kind of stuff. And fortunately, I had picked a double degree. So I was doing arts alongside the law and through arts, I was doing a psychology major.

So that was like tucked away back there. And when it got to third year and things were getting a little dire, that was the point where I was like, okay, we might need to pivot. Yeah, we might need to pivot. And luckily I had something already on the go that I could pivot to. And that was psychology.

Marcus: Okay, so I'm going to ask you a question and I personally find this question really hard to answer. But like, why did you choose a career in clinical psychology? If you can answer that.

Rachel: It's such an interesting thing, and I love talking to people on the journey of maybe considering psych about some of this stuff.

I think I always had it in the back of my mind. Um, my mom was a counsellor, she headed up a counselling service. Um, I've been around a lot of people who've been in the caring professions, um, loved psychology in year 12. The theory is like, you know, so exciting and just understanding why humans do what they do. And, you know, all that kind of thing. So I genuinely had a bit of investment there as well. But didn't, I don't think I imagined doing like a full pivot, like you were saying, it was kind of just there on the back burner, um, because it turns out you actually kind of loved that side of things more in the end.

I think growing up, I might have been the friend that people would talk to about things. For whatever reason, maybe I can build trust with people or people feel comfortable. And I quite like being a sounding board for people or being able to provide whatever snippet of wisdom, or experience that I have, and I found that fulfilling.

Part of it as well, I think, is just even the theory, I found it so interesting. Like it was so meaty, there's so much to it, like to get an understanding of, again, why do we talk the way we talk? Why do we act the way we act? You know, what can we do about that to like change the future and rewrite the narrative and things like that. Even from just a theory perspective, I found it so rich and exciting as well. So they were probably my two drivers.

Asami: It's such a hard question too, isn't it? You're like, why did I choose this? 

Rachel: Yea Yea 

MX in - Falling

If you put on your psychologist hat now and then you look back at young Rachel and then there's that sticky note, what did it, if you don't mind sharing, what did it say? And like then now looking back at yourself, like what does that look like to you, if that makes sense?

Rachel: That is so funny because it seems like the sticky note is going to have something profound on it. It was literally just that ATAR required to get into arts law.

Marcus: Yeah, I had the exact same thing. 

Rachel: Oh, you did? 

Asami: What do you mean? 

Rachel: Marcus, thank you for validating. 

Marcus: I did. It was just the ATAR. It was just like a number, and that was it.

Asami: Like your goal or like, this is how hard you work.

Marcus: That's my goal. 

Rachel: That's the goal. Yeah, it was just a number.  So uninspiring when you think about it.

Marcus: Yeah, I had that too. And I will say I had that in the third year as well for my goal for what to get for honours. Like what I was aiming for.

Asami: Did you get it? Yeah.

Rachel: It's working so far. 

Marcus: I think it's like manifestation. Yeah.

Asami: Okay, and the second part of your question. Yeah, like, okay, now, as a psychologist, and then you look at your younger self doing that. Yeah. Now it's suddenly gone really deep, but I don't know. Yeah, yeah, that's what we're here for, right? Tell me what you think when you think of your younger self doing that. I mean...

Rachel: Like we're laughing about what's on the sticky note, but it is so one-dimensional, isn't it? It's a flat number. Like you can't boil it down anymore. It's like three digits on a sticky note. And in hindsight, it's like, wow, yeah, I really boiled down years of education, years of life into such a one-dimensional goal. Yeah. And I think what I would reflect on my younger self is kind of going, that's, that's really interesting. Like, um, what would it mean for you then if you didn't get that number? You know, we're talking about such a flat goal here, um, that has no, like other avenues. It has no like meat to it. Um, what does it mean if you do get that number? Like, does that mean, yeah, you now have worth, you now have a place in the world. like. It's just so interesting to then unpack what that number was about and hopefully maybe have something different written on a sticky note, you know, um, something a little more 3D, a little more real life, um, a little more rich.

MX out

Asami: Yeah, and a number is so black or white, isn't it? So you get it or you don't get it. 

Rachel: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Asami: If you don't mind me asking, like, does that, like, can we talk about things like family expectations or like pressure in terms of career choices and did that kind of impact your decisions during uni and career?

Rachel: Yeah, interestingly in my story, my parents were pretty flexible. They wanted me to be happy. They wanted me to reach my potential. Oh, that's such a weird one there. Because obviously they saw things in me as well, but they never had anything set in mind for me. They really just wanted me to explore the depths of what I could do, what I would be good at, what I'd be passionate about. So really they were cheerleaders. for me. My mum wanted me to be a children's book author, like, actually, if she had her way. Yeah. Why don't you just do that? Like, I'm busy studying law. But I think a lot of my drive came from self-expectations, probably. Just feeling like... Yeah, maybe internalising a bit of that, like I need to reach my potential. And so if I can get that ATAR score, that means that's my potential. And that's what I have to do because that's the limit of my potential. I have to go max, you know? So it's such an interesting thing that, um, I interpreted it that way, maybe, or, you know, 16, 17 year old. That's how I saw the world. Um, and I drove myself, you know, I, I tucked myself away. My parents would be like, do you want to like come out? I don’t know do you wanna do some other things 

Asami: Yeah. Wow. It's so beautiful that you say that because I feel like there's like this often very common narrative around Asian Australians who are like, no, my parents, my parents push me, my parents push me. But I would say that on our podcast as well, we've heard that narrative a lot. Like what you say, it actually wasn't my parents. It was me for some reason, like driving something, like who knows what was going on, but um, on that, like could you? Tell us a little bit about, you know, your Asian-Australian identity. Like, was it something that you thought a lot of as a child growing up? Or, I don't know, like, how have you come to embrace your Asian-Australian identity now? 

Rachel: Growing up, it was so interesting in primary school, I was one of two or three Asians in my year level, and then in high school I was one of four, which the ratio compared to, you know, the experience of maybe people listening, um, the environment was so different and maybe it just so happened to be the schools I ended up in and all that kind of thing, but it meant that I had to wrestle alone for quite a lot of it. I had... some Asian friends but by no means like a whole community and trying to make sense of how do I be in these environments and who am I in these environments. Yeah I took a longer time to work that out I feel like. I think I tried to be more Western if you want to say that because I looked at the people around me and who's cool who's like this and that and I didn't have those um, people, um, who looked like me and, um, who sounded like me and, and had families like me. And so I think I tried to maybe be the most Western version of myself. I could be on the most, you know, like a whitewashed version I could be of myself for many, many years growing up. And then I got to uni and there was like, the world opens up then, right? You've got people coming from all over. You're all, you know, in, in this melting pot. And I'm like, oh my goodness, Asians are awesome. But I can just see that I just have so much more exposure to what it can mean to be an Asian in Australia. And it wasn't one stereotype, just the breadth of experiences and stories and people was amazing. 

And then suddenly I started to understand, I think at that point I was like, I understand what my parents have been saying all along about you need to hold onto that pride, you need to. know your traditions, you know, know our family story, all of this, because I started to see it in other people and see it represented so beautifully. And I was like, no, I get it now. And I think I went retrospectively backwards. And now I'm at a place where I'm married, I have a daughter, and I'm like, I want her to know who she is. And I want her to know our story and the stories before her. And I want her to be proud of that and find her place. I'm talking so much here. 

Marcus: That's so beautiful.

Asami: It's like a pep talk.

Rachel: Yeah, but I got, I think I only landed somewhere quite late in life. 

MX in - Made Up My Mind

Asami: It's interesting, isn't it? It's like something that happens later, like is that, I don't know, I'm just going to ask you like all these psychology questions, but do you think it's like an identity formation thing, like because it's like a next level identity formation, so you have to go through your adolescence and then you're like, okay now I've got space to consider this more nuanced level of identity.

Rachel: Yeah. I mean, you're thinking about being 14 or 15. You're just going, does anyone like me or like, um, you know, my, my body is changing and like my family's fighting with me and, and you're just stealing on the ground, like day-to-day stresses. You know, like at work, the young people coming through the door–it's only the ones who are maybe 20, 21, 22 is starting to go, I'm wrestling with some really existential stuff here. And, um, now maybe because I'm through those years, like you're saying, where I have at least a foundation for who I am. Um, and I'm starting to explore maybe like those higher levels of, you know, belonging and community and identity. So you're right. I think you've taken me off the hook there to go, it was okay. That only discovered some of that about myself later, you know, in life.

Asami: Same. It’s coming Marcus.

MX out

Marcus: So yeah, we talked a bit about your cultural identity and also your uncertainties growing up in that high school and early uni experience, but I guess what I want to talk about now is your uncertainties surrounding your career and coming out of uni. And I guess my first question for you is, did you feel like uni prepared you well to become a Clinical Psych? like, what was your first experience on placement like?

Rachel: I found the placements, yes, definitely, were the most enriching and real part of the training. By then you're like in your sixth, like you were saying, Marcus, right? You're right at the end of your training and you finally get let loose into the world. And I think meeting real people and seeing how all this theory on the page applies to a real family or a real young person. You're doing like cognitive assessments and you're doing your clinical assessments as well, but you're like, oh, this is a real person who goes back to their family and their school and suddenly everything comes alive. So I found the placements part by far the best and the most realistic indication of what, you know a career in this industry might look like.

Marcus: Yeah. Yeah. Did you ever have any like doubts?

Rachel: Oh, I mean, the imposter syndrome, when you're a student, I remember seeing my first client and thinking, they don't know that they are the very first client I have ever seen. They might think I've been here a couple of years, I don't know what they're thinking, or maybe at least seen one or two, but you are, you know, baseline.

So there's this bizarre fake it till you make it type experience where you know you have the training, you've done the six years of theory. But at the same time, nothing prepares you for a real person sitting opposite you and doing it in real time.

Marcus: And so how did you build that identity then, like being able to like be sure of like yourself and like be like, yeah, I can do this?

Rachel: Yeah, well maybe I'm a lesson in a path that was unhelpful for doing that because I actually went into private practise straight away out of uni and I know a lot of people who do that and I certainly can't speak for their experiences, but in private practise you are sitting alone in a room, you might have a receptionist who helps you out, Um, you have a supervisor, but there's no team and you're there and you're going, am I doing this right? And you've got one other person, your supervisor, who's going, yeah, you're doing fine. But, you know, as an early career, anything, you're kind of going, are you sure? So it's a bit of an echo chamber, an environment which I was wrestling myself with a lot of, am I good enough, am I doing this right?

Marcus: Wow. So how did you deal with that then? Like, was it like just speaking to your supervisor, or like, reflecting? I don't know. 

Rachel: I had to do a lot of supervision with my supervisor, just around, just being more confident in what I was doing, I was never about how good the work was. It's like the work was always fine, but why don't you believe the work is fine? Um, but then outside of that, I think, um, just talking to family, talking to people I'd studied with who had done psych went my colleagues, but, um, they're at the same level of work experience as I was and just kind of going, do you feel this too, like, well, what's this about? So just trying to source that myself and get the input I needed. Yeah.

MX Sting 2

Marcus: What was the actual job search and journey like? Do you have any tips on how to approach that?

Rachel: Um, so I think I mentioned I started in private practise. I took on that role because I accepted the first role that accepted me, um, just almost in a flurry of worry that I wouldn't get another job. I kind of, um, I applied broadly and the first person that got back to me and was like, yes, we'll interview you and with private practise. you know, it's not a very extensive process. They're like, sure, if you can hold your own, go for it. And so I did the private practise thing for quite a few years. And I was finding that it was exhausting actually. I am an introvert actually. And normally like short spurts is great but I was finding if I was doing back to back sessions. It was really exhausting.

And then I had this whole crisis where I was like, but this is all that psychs do. Like I've spent six years of training to get to this point, and I might not be cut out for it. And I started to cut back hours and do things, but that triggered a bit of an exploration to go, what else do psychs do? And that's where I discovered other roles that people might not even know that you can do in psychology, but things like intake and access and triage, where you're the front end and you're fielding the calls and you're doing risk management and you're deciding which pathways a client should go on, what treatment they need. 

And I have always been passionate about empowering other people to do what they do and so after this intake access stint I was like I think I want to work with a team, like I want to oversee a team, I want to do something in that space. I got a role in a school which was to oversee mentors who were providing mentoring to secondary students but you know you need like a psychologist to lead that team and oversee that, amazing experience and I'm like, I think this is what I, more of what I want to do. And so, um, from there, I started to look more for those kinds of roles. Um, and Headspace was one that came up and allowed me to do that.

Asami: Yeah, we actually met you through Headspace, so can you tell us a bit about your journey into Headspace, like what you do there, and also give us the Headspace spiel as well.

Rachel: I started there as a senior clinician during COVID times. We opened just at a crazy time for a Headspace Centre to open because the lockdowns happened here in Melbourne. And then I became clinical lead probably six to nine months after that. Yeah, so an intentional move to kind of go, I want to work somewhere like Headspace, and then just a bit of progression that just happened kind of naturally once I was there.

Asami: As a clinical lead, do you still do client facing work or is it really just supporting the team and case reviews and things like that?

Rachel: Yeah. At the moment I don't do any of my own casework. That was also part of the appeal for me as well, kind of talking about my own progression as a psych and what I wanted to do with that degree. It was a bit of an intentional move. I see a couple like every now and then, just to keep my skills fresh, but it is very much more just day-to-day operations, making sure the team is supported, supervised, having that clinical governance and leadership, which I love, I love doing that. I haven't given you the Headspace spiel.

Asami: Okay, yeah, give us the Headspace spiel!

Rachel: Yeah, so for anyone who doesn't know, Headspace is the National Youth Mental Health Foundation funded by the government. And so Headspace sites are all across Australia. You will have a local Headspace site, hopefully, even rural and regionally, if you're listening from there.

And Headspace is meant to be a bit of a one-stop shop for young people to access support for their mental health. But thinking about that really holistically, so going, yes, we have counsellors or mental health clinicians. They're the bulk of what we do, but we also have a GP, work and study, art therapy, family sessions, parent sessions. Um, cause we know all of those things, um, can contribute to your mental health. And so we want, um, Headspace to be, uh, the place that you can go to kind of, um, look at a lot of those things in an environment that you feel comfortable with. 

So specifically at Headspace Syndal, um, we've got an amazing team. We're quite multicultural actually. Um, I was counting, we have like Mandarin speaking, Vietnamese speaking and Spanish speaking. clinicians at the moment, and we've had other, you know, languages through the door as well. But yeah, at the moment, we've got an amazing team who can provide ongoing counselling through a mental health care plan. 

But also really importantly, we have a session by session model, which you don't need a GP referral for, you don't need Medicare for. So for our international students or anyone who just, yeah, might be looking for more of a casual type counselling. We have this session by session option and it's more like a come as you need type of counselling because we kind of go, not everyone needs 10 sessions, not everyone needs that. 

It might be something happened at home or something happened at school and you just need to touch base with someone once. You can come again, but we're not going to assume you're going to keep coming, but let's be helpful to you in an hour while we've got you in the room. Yeah.

Asami: That's awesome. 

Rachel: Yeah, we've had international students who go, I don't have Medicare. What does that look like for me? And we go, we can absolutely see you.

Asami: Um, really? Okay. So no, like referral, nothing, no Medicare. Insurance?

Rachel: No, not for that stream. So if an international student has private health insurance, they can access the ongoing stream as well, the 10 session one that I referred to first, but no private health insurance or, you know, not wanting to use that, the session by session stream is no   attached.

MX in - LA LA LA

Marcus: Now that you sort of know the path it took and like everything you've kind of gone through to become like clinical lead at Headspace, if you could go back to that point in time where you like dropped law, what would you do? Like would you still have gone and like just stuck with psych?

Rachel: Yes, absolutely. A hundred percent. I know I made the right decision. Yeah. Um, I go to work and I feel fulfilled. Um, I've also interestingly found a way to use clinical psych, not just doing like the client facing work, but going, Oh, like you can be a clinical psych and also manage a team and you can help people. If that's your value, if you're like, I identify that's the person I want to be when I'm at work, I want to. Show compassion to the less fortunate or I want to, I don't know, like be someone who's a safe place. You can do that in so many different ways. It doesn't have to look like the psychology therapy that you see and that you're trained to do. There are so many avenues, so many settings, so many ways you can express that and still have the end goal of helping people. That was so not the question you asked me, but…

Marcus: No, that was great. 

Asami: No, you kind of like beautifully summarised what is your advice, which we are going to get to anyway, so that was awesome.

MX out

Marcus: That's great. Okay, so now as part of your role as like a clinical lead at Headspace then, like you hire people and everything, what do you sort of look out for like when you are hiring people?

Rachel: Asking for a friend.

Marcus: Yeah. Definitely not for me.

Rachel: And I wish I knew this when I was on the other end. I think we look much more at the kind of person who's sitting across from us. There's the human element that you can't replace. And so I'm talking about things like, um, how flexible are you, um, how do you work in a team? How reliable are you? Um, how passionate are you? How do you deal with change? Are you teachable? Like, are you keen to learn? All that kind of stuff, I think there's a lot more value in that. 

Um, say it's so different from uni where it's so much about like getting the right answer, but I think, um, when we're employing people, we're so much more interested in your process, just kind of going like, sure, we might give you a case study or a question and you kind of, your answer's not quite on the mark, but if you've talked through like your thinking and you're showing a thoughtfulness and you're showing us a bit of like who you are and how you work. There's so much value in that too, rather than just like, I need to show off my hard skills, getting all the answers right, tick, tick, tick. Show me who you are, show me how you think, show me how you operate.

Marcus: That's great advice.

Rachel: This was just for Marcus 

Marcus: This episode is done for me. 

Asami: Was it helpful? 

Marcus: Yeah, very helpful. Very helpful. 

MX Sting 1

Marcus: Each episode for this season, we're going to ask three quick questions to each of our guests, just like sort of ground us. And our third question is always tailored to our guests. So our first question is, Rachel, do you think you could ever be too close to your work colleagues?

Rachel: Oh my gosh. Oh, wow. See, I reckon you can. I reckon there's a line. I love socialising and I love chatting to people, but, um, surely, surely. That was like a boring answer to an interesting question because now my cogs are just turning.

Asami: It’s such a loaded question 

Rachel: Marcus, what’s this about? 

Asami: I've got a question for you. When was the last time you actually took a mental health day?

Rachel: It's got to be in the last month. Oh, yeah. Great. Oh, I'm a, I'm a personal leave gal. I'm, I'm, I'm all for that. And I encourage my team to do it too. Um, I have a toddler who's not sleeping great right now. And there was a day when I had to just call in my in-laws and just be like, um, I'm home today, but could you come and take her so that I can actually clock off for a bit, which is an interesting experience because it's not that I'm going to work. that they need to come help. I was just like, I think I actually need to take care of myself today. Cause I can see where the no sleep and the high stress of the day is sort of taking me. And I would love a reset and they're fantastic. And they did that.

Marcus: That's so good.

Rachel: Yeah, that was, yeah.

Asami: That's amazing. Yeah. What a good example. I thought you were going to be like, Oh no, not in the last three years. 

Rachel: I'm the first to wave the flag to be like tap out 

Asami: That's amazing. Okay, the last question is, so this one's for you. We think that you are, I feel so silly. We think that you are one of the nicest people we know. Okay, full stop. At work, do you think you can be too nice?

Rachel: Oh, yes, this is something I've had to learn and step into. It's part of all the growth and getting older too. I genuinely, I think I have really like nice personal relationships with my team, but I've had to learn how to balance that with going, well, what if we're gonna do some performance management here or something didn't go quite well or probably shouldn't have said that And how do I broach that. So I think it's been learning for me to go love people, love my team, but part of loving them will also be, being like a mirror and being able to have hard conversations and walking that line. I'm still learning. Everyone's still learning how to do that, but I've gotten better.

Asami: Yeah and it's like you can be nice and you can lead and you can give feedback and you can have fun.

Rachel: Absolutely. You've earned the trust you've earned, and they know that you're for them, you know, you're not there to be against them. And that's why the feedback is there. That's why, you know, the encouragement is there. And it all lands.

Asami: Yeah, amazing. Great. Well, thank you so much, Rachel, for joining us. Thank you for this chat. It was lovely to hear your experiences and like mentor Marcus for an hour.

Marcus: Thank you thank you 

Rachel: Yeah, just send me a message if you've got any questions. Love it, love it. 

MarcusL No, that would be great 

Asami: His question will be Can I work in your team? 

Rachel: Oh, that's your question, right? Yeah, we'll chat afterwards. He's blushing, everyone. Get out of the camera for visuals.

Asami: OK, so everyone, everyone thank you for listening, thank you for joining in this convo as well. I hope you learned a lot from Rachel like we did. 

You can find us on Instagram and LinkedIn at Just Shapes and Sounds. And don't forget to like and subscribe to us on your favourite podcast app. You can download this episode for offline listening. If you like looking at faces, you can watch us on YouTube as well. You can see Rachel's like very friendly face. 

Rachel: Please stick to the podcast. 

MX in - AMH theme

Asami: And for us, we would love if you could share this episode with your friends, because word of mouth, I would say it really helps to de-stigmatise mental health conversations in our community. So everyone, we're going to give you our amazing new sign off.

Marcus: Okay, so, I can't do this.

Asami: There are so many giggles right now.

Marcus: With me, you edit it together.

Asami: What am I witnessing right now?

Marcus: All right, so everyone stay safe…

Asami: Stay silly and see you soon.

This is a production from Shapes and Sounds. It’s hosted by Asami Koike, Marcus Lai and Oscar Abe, and produced by Yeo Choong. We’re proudly supported by the Victorian Department of Health’s Diverse Communities Program. All thoughts and ideas you hear are independently ours and our guests’.

MX out

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