The Silent Hustle: Work and Mental Health. The Asian Mental Health Podcast Episode 17

The Asian Mental Health is back! To kick things off, Asami, Marcus and Oscar define the theme they’ve chosen for our third season and talk about the impact that work has on our mental health. 

Watch the episode below or find us on Spotify or Apple Podcasts!

The transcript is available below.

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We’d love to hear your thoughts and ideas about Asian mental health. Find us online at ⁠@justshapesandsounds⁠ or ⁠justshapesandsounds.com⁠

This podcast is supported by the Victorian Department of Health via the Diverse Communities Program. All information provided is general information only and should not be used in lieu of professional advice.

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Transcript

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Shapes and Sounds acknowledges the Traditional Owners of the lands on which we’re recording and connecting with you from, the Wurundjeri Woi-wurrung people of the Kulin Nation and we pay our respects to Elders past and present.

Asami: Welcome back everyone to season three of the Asian mental health podcast. Hello! I want to ask you both, what have you both been doing since the last season, which was 2024? So like, what's like one thing that you've learned? Like, for example, I've learnt that, um, have you ever heard of like an olive undertone in your skin? 

Oscar: Oh, yeah. 

Marcus: I've heard of like a red… I don't know if it's red or like

Asami: warm and cool, right? 

Marcus: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Asami: But there's another one that's olive and I realised that that's me, that's something I learned over the summer and apparently it's like... and apparently it's If you look at yourself in photos, in groups of people, if you're the one that looks a bit green. Olive undertone, and then there's like a whole other range of like makeup and skincare that you can use in colours

Marcus: Oh, that kind of compliments you and everything.

Asami: Yeah, otherwise you're always forcing yourself to be either cool or warm.

Marcus: Oh, I'm warm, I think.

Asami: You are super warm.

Oscar: I have no clue

Asami: I think you're cool.

Marcus: Yeah, you're definitely cool.

Oscar: I know I’m cool guys.

Asami: It's something to do with your veins that you look at. You and your veins, like you look... 

Marcus: Yeah, I think I have a red undertone, that's what I've been told.

Asami: Okay, so just like that, what's something new that you've learned?

Marcus: Oh.

Asami: Oh man, that's a hard question. I know, it's a hard question.

Marcus: I don't know

Asami: Okay, the reason why I ask you a difficult question like this is this season, we're going to talk about work, but in the work context, let me give you some advice that you should always have like some little weird tidbit of small talk up your sleeve because like when you do work, you always need like these little stories to like fill the space. Right? So there you go. Life Lesson 101. So there you go, Life Lesson 101.

Marcus: Think of fun, interesting stories. 

Oscar: Yeah. I'm going to fail in the workplace.

MX - AMH Theme

Asami: As a fun fact, did you know that we spend a third of our lifetime working, which is 90,000 hours approximately.

Marcus: That's crazy. That's crazy.

Asami: That's a lot, eh?

Marcus: That's too much. So crazy. Oh no. But that actually reminds me, I don't know, about this work stuff. Like, there was this cartoon that I saw in class. It was like one of the anthropology classes I did. And it was saying something like, you don't get paid for eight hours of work, but you get paid for working eight hours. 

Marcus: Does that make sense? 

Asami: No, say it again, sorry.

Marcus: Okay, so you don't get paid for eight hours of work. So say you go to hospo and you work for eight hours, the amount of money you're generating for the restaurant is like, I don't know, a few thousand maybe, but you don't get paid that, you don't get paid the thousand, you get paid like 20 an hour.

Oscar: Yeah, per hour, not per like how much you generate 

Asami: Per output and like your worth is tied into the amount of time that you give. 

Marcus: Yeah, not the actual output.

Asami: Interesting, hey?

Marcus: Yeah.

Asami: I think I've always been interested in disentangling like your time and your money, you know, like that should be a separate thing. Like how much money you make should not be tied to the number of hours you work. But I think that's what we're all trying to do in this capitalist world as well. Yeah. Anyway, would you both say work is a big part of your lives? Like, it doesn't have to be ours, but you're thinking about like the future of work as well?

Oscar: Absolutely. I mean, even university is tied to work. So it's like almost most of my life. Yeah.

Asami: Yeah, You're like moving towards your careers. 

Yeah. Yeah. So I mean, work is such a big part of our lives and our identities, and it's a place for many to create their purpose. I think for many, it's a place to connect with others, but we'll talk more about that Marcus. And it gives us things like social status and like, there's so many things tied in with work. But I think many of us are wondering like, how do we actually take care of our mental health?

Oscar: Hmm, that's way too big of a question to be answering in one episode Asami.

MX - Everyday Hustle

Asami: The theme for this season is the Silent Hustle: Work and Mental Health. Tell me, this title, The Silent Hustle, what does it mean for you, Marcus?

Marcus: Well, when I think of the silent part of silent hustle, I think reflecting on my own experiences and sort of my cultural upbringing, I think there's a lot of emphasis on always looking inward and turning to yourself to sort of resolve any stress you have with work, with uni, with life, anything. And I guess that's kind of like how Asian cultures are, I guess, more collectivist, it’s like, cause there's that emphasis on like maintaining interpersonal harmonies all the time, anything that's stressing us out, any sort of like struggle we're facing is always sort of like kept inwards. So I guess that's my definition of like why it's silent, the hustle.

Asami: Like you keep it all together.

Marcus: Yeah, exactly. And then you present.

Asami: as you hustle.

Marcus: Yeah, and you present like, yeah, I'm OK. It's like sort of outward presentation. So yeah.

Oscar: Yeah

Marcus: Yeah, that's how I kind of define it.

MX out

Oscar: I think for me when I think about the silent hustle, you can always think of everyone having to participate in some sort of a grind. And in doing that, there is a self that we bring to our workplaces and a self that we have at home. I feel like that's like a majority concept for most people.

Asami: Yeah, definitely.

Oscar: concept for most people. And in that, those kind of identities that we have, the one that we bring to our workplace and the one that we have for our private selves, they can sort of conflict or consume us in some ways. And I think for me, the silent hustle is sort of that internal conflict and like balance of how I present two identities. Yeah, the two identities I have, like the one that I bring to work, and the way I present to be able to, you know, get through my day-to-day work and the one that I have at home and like learning to also be able to nurture that person at home, you know, that person who I am when I go home to myself, you know.

Asami: Yeah. Which one do you feel more like?

Oscar: Definitely the person who I am at home. I feel like that's - That makes sense. Yeah, but I think you can't just like bring that to the workplace as well. So, yeah.

Asami: I agree. I'm not really like a bring your whole self to work. It's like actually bring like your work self. Like actually bring like your work cell.

Marcus: No, no, it's like a boundary thing. Like be professional at work, not like be cold, but like be professional and everything and then. Keep parts of yourself to yourself.

Asami: Exactly, not the whole self, just like 80% maybe. 

Oscar: Yeah, yeah. What about you, Asami?

Asami: I think when I hear the silent hustle, it's similar to you both, like the word hustle that you mentioned, Oscar, and then silent, which you really touched on. And it makes me think about, you know, the model minority myth, which is like this idea that Asians are really hard workers and we just are really quiet and we just get the job done. And so I feel like it really ties into that cultural element of, or things that I've heard people talk about, I don't necessarily agree or disagree. 

For me, being Japanese, I also think about this idea of like in Japan, sure, there's like a really strong work ethic, but I also think people look down on hustle as well. I don't know. What do you think, Oscar? Like, I think it's like lowbrow to hustle. 

Marcus: What does that mean? 

Asami: Like, it's like, oh, that's not very classy to hustle. I don't know.

Oscar: I don't know. I feel like... Some I think it's about talking about the hustle because I think everyone has to hustle in Japan. I mean the amount of like unpaid over time that people do. I think it's like a given, everyone is hustling, but I think like maybe talking about it or making a big deal out of it, that's probably what I feel like might be lowbrow.

Asami: Yeah, yeah, maybe.

Asami: It's so interesting. And then for me, my personal journey with silent hustling is I think I used to, I used to internalise everything similar to what you were kind of talking about, but now I'm like a loud hustle. And what that looks like is like back in the day, like I would find it really hard to ask questions, you know, and to be like, I don't understand. But now everything is like, I don't get it. I don't get it. Tell me, tell me, tell me. So I'm always asking questions, rather than like, oh, I don't understand. Let me just go home and research it myself. I'll always source the answers. And then also like if something bad happens, I no longer internalise things. I just try and address them and talk about it and tell people how much they've upset me and all that kind of stuff. So it's getting louder and louder.

Marcus: What kind of reactions have you gotten in the workplace then once you started doing that?

Asami: Do you know what? I think it's good. I think it's better. Like, I think telling people that you're upset at them is a way of setting a boundary. Yep. And then people respect that. They're like, oh, I didn't know that upset you. Let me never do that again, let me never And then you can really see people's characters. Like some people will try and cross your boundaries again. Other people are like, okay, she does not respond well to that. I've never had to set a boundary with you, Marcus, if you're wondering, if you're thinking like, have I ever been upset with you?

Marcus: That wasn't why I asked, but good to know.

MX in - A Trace of Light

Asami: I think everyone kind of dropped a few big ideas in that conversation. So there's a lot to talk about and that's exactly why we chose this theme. We are Asian people navigating work within a so-called Western society or a multicultural society. So we'll tie our conversations with that cultural context as well. And I shared this on LinkedIn to do a call for questions to say that the three of us in this room, we don't have any experience in the corporate sector, but I think it just highlights that work is relevant to everyone. It doesn't matter what industry you're in, whether that's hospo, which we'll talk about, whether that's like health services that I've been in or the majority of people in corporate services. Hopefully it's a conversation that will resonate with you and we look forward to sharing our conversations with you. 

MX out

Because we're on the Asian Mental Health podcast, we've got to look at that intersection between Asian culture and work.

Marcus: I think it's really important that we acknowledge the cultural influences in work because our cultural upbringing can influence so many things like how we interact with people at work, how we respond to different things at work.

Asami: How we interpret things?

Marcus: Yeah, how we're interpreting.

Asami: Or like how people perceive us.

Marcus: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, I think there's a huge cultural influence to that. Yeah.

Oscar: Do you have any examples off the top of your head? 

Marcus: Ooh, I don't know Um...

Asami: Yeah, because it can get like very overgeneralized. Yeah, I'm trying not to.

Marcus: Yeah, I'm trying not to overgeneralize. Like I think obviously there's that narrative of like Asian people are a bit like quiet in the workplace and everything. And it's like, yeah, like maybe that's because like Asian people are collectivists and everything. And they're like, yeah, trying to promote interpersonal harmonies at work and whatever, but I feel like something important to sort of remind ourselves is that we're not, like not all Asian people are interdependent or like not all of them are like sort of have a strong emphasis on collectivism. Like it depends on like, I don't know how long you've lived in Australia, how much you've acculturated. And everyone to some extent has internalised some degree of both independence and interdependence. So, yeah, I don't know, I think that's also important to know, yeah. 

Asami: It depends, right? And you kind of spoke about that big word acculturation. So if we just kind of try and summarise it. Acculturation is this term that describes people migrating to other countries. And when you do, you bring a part of your home country's culture with you. But over time, you kind of adopt the culture and the values and the way of living of your new host culture. And acculturation is when that becomes like really seamless and you've integrated both your old self and your new self. Whereas assimilation is more like you just adopt the new one and let go of your old culture, right? 

So maybe it kind of ties into this idea around skilled migration. Like skilled migration is this thing that we have, many countries have it, but in Australia, like we have a list of gaps in our service system or like the jobs that are lacking in our country. And so then if people wanna migrate to Australia, we're seeking people that fill in the gaps, you know? So then those professions will get put forward for visas and it's easier to get a migration visa to come into the country. And then what's really interesting, I think, is like no one's really talking about the intersection between skilled migration and mental health. But I think like when skilled migration goes wrong... is like when people internalise that your worth is literally tied to your job, you know what I mean?

Marcus: Like, their worth in coming to Australia. It's like, yeah, you're contributing this part to the economy.

Asami: Exactly. And so therefore, like, if you're not doing well at work, then what does that say about you or like, how can someone on a skilled migration visa take mental health days and like take leave and like, I'm just going to take a sabbatical.

Oscar: And I can imagine that's also like intergenerationalised if your parents have come through that skilled immigrant pathway, how does that also affect and shape you as a person and your own values as well?

Asami: Yeah, like it makes you think like, okay, I contribute therefore, I contribute therefore I am. 

And I think we spoke about this in our recent Community of Practice. And for those who are interested, what we do is every single quarter, so every three months, we bring together a lot of Asian therapists that practise all across Australia. And we go through a journal club. So we pick an article every quarter, and we discuss that. But it's also a space for networking and supporting one another in our work as well. So, in our recent Community of Practice that we ran in... February, we spoke about this really interesting article from Melbourne Uni by a researcher called Maheen. And what they found was the impact of unemployment was the worst for Asian men who were migrants to this country. Like, their mental health was the most negatively affected, right, compared to all other racial groups. And the reasons why were things like many people from Asian countries, like have gendered expectations, you know, about like the man being the breadwinner. So that's interesting to think about.

MX sting 5

Oscar: So clearly there is a connection that work does impact mental health, but what are some signs of the work environment being, I guess, not conducive to mental health here in Australia?

Asami: I have a lot to say about this. 

Marcus: Me too, but you go first. 

Asami: We're like, mmm, let me tell you, Oscar.

Oscar: Oh the tea, here we go!

Asami: Number one, the worst thing that a workplace can have is poor leadership. That's like, I hate poor leadership. This is like my pet peeve. I could spend one hour talking about this. I'm not gonna go into it, but for people to thrive, there has to be a structure and like the leader has to actually lead and the leader has to take care of everyone and actually like drive the bus or sail the ship or whatever, they have to light the path forward and take care of everyone going forward. And that is like so rare to find. Poor leadership is my answer.

Marcus: Okay, I'm going to go a bit extreme and it's not even funny, but like exploitation, like just straight up exploitation in the workplace and it happens more.

Asami: That's pretty bad.

Marcus: Yes, and it happens more than, I don't know, I feel like it happens more than you think within the workplace. And especially in hospitality. Oh my God, the stories of hospitality are crazy.

Asami: Yeah, tell us.

Marcus: Tell us. So at my old hospitality job, which I will just say started with a G, and...

Asami: Ends with a…

Marcus: Um, maybe we won't say what it ends with, but it was a restaurant and it starts with a G and it was Korean. So maybe that's enough hints, but I just, I don't know. I just see all these like young, like underage kids get exploited and they like. I don't know, like the bosses don't tell them what they rightfully deserve. They don't tell them that they're supposed to get super. Like, I didn't know I was supposed to get super and I never got paid super for two years. 

Oscar: That's straight up illegal.

Asami: I was the one that introduced superannuation to Marcus. I feel so proud of myself.

Marcus: Yeah, now I know what my rights are.

Asami: I'm obsessed with super too, so just so you know.

Marcus: But yeah, so crazy and being underpaid and yeah, they just like take advantage of kids who like don't know and it's like maybe their first time working ever and they like probably think this is normal to just work hard and like be like yeah like this job is pretty bad but like it's a job so.

Asami: and like younger, young as in like under 18s?

Marcus: Yeah

Oscar: And especially if you're in that position, there's like, when you're younger, you have less, I guess like techniques or skills to also deal with that emotions that come with it or even like recognise that you are being exploited. So there is that sort of thing about like, yeah, you can get really bad mental health just from working with like exploitative workers or bad leadership. 

And out of my own curiosity, recently I went and researched some statistics about engineering, because I was curious. I'm like, do engineers like their jobs? Like, how is it for engineering? Because I'm studying engineering and I didn't really know that much. Like, I mean, everyone, the joke is, is like, what does an engineer do? Like, no one can answer it, but also, how are they, like what's going on? And so I searched it up and I found that like, for average levels of depression, anxiety and stress exceed population norms by 40 % for depression, 38 % for anxiety, and 37 % for stress. So that means that compared to the normal populace of workers, engineers are like that much more depressed.

Asami: like 40 % more depressed.

Oscar: Yeah, yeah, than the average population and then on top of that like in contrast to the general population who report about 20 % of people being dissatisfied with work. 59% of respondents endorse being unsatisfied with their work -life balance, which to me is like,  scary. That's scary. Yeah. About 60%. So many people hate their job. 

Asami: Two-thirds. And that would be like all engineers. 

Oscar: Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is like averaged across Australia's infrastructure and construction industry. Um, another one, a report, um, by equal engineers into masculinity in engineering said that 61 % of engineers said their physical or emotional problems disrupted their normal social activities. Um, 22 % had taken time off as a result of emotional problems.

Asami: That is so high.

Oscar: It’s ridiculous. Yeah, it really is.

Asami: Yeah, and if it's about masculinity and engineering, and I assume it's like quite a male -dominant industry, right? 

Oscar: Absolutely, absolutely. It's one of the bigger, you know, STEM male dominated industries.

Asami: Okay.

Oscar: And it is really depressing, like, reading this just made me a little bit scared, to be honest, about, you know, work -life balance, I'm, I don't really know what to say, it's just really... Yeah. Jarring. 

Asami: Like you haven't processed it yet.

Oscar: Yeah, yeah. I hope I don't become like a percentage, I guess.

Asami: I find that really sad, like for you, especially as you're studying, right, and you're like looking forward to this career ahead and then there's like these really bleak statistics. 

And I think it reminds me of the stats in the mental health sector as well. Like the irony is a lot of people working in mental health experience really poor mental health as well. I'm not sure if you've heard recently or it won't be recent by the time this is but essentially 200 psychiatrists in the public mental health system in New South Wales quit because of like not good work conditions, like very bad work conditions I should say. So there's like a whole crisis going on in the public mental health and the acute system in New South Wales, which really highlights like, how are people supposed to take care of really unwell people if they themselves are really struggling and everything is kind of breaking and apparently the financial health of mental health practitioners is really, really low compared to other industries. So people report very low financial health, which then impacts their mental health as well.

Marcus: As in like financial stability.

Asami: Yeah. So that's not good. That's super bleak, right? 

MX in - 3rd Ave Blues

I think like if I talk about my own experience, like when I was working five days a week as a clinician working in crisis mental health, now looking back, I didn't know it at the time, but now looking back, it's like, wow, I was like the most unwell I have ever, ever been. And it's taken me this long. Like that It was 2019, 2018 to 2019, like. It's taken me this long to feel like a normal person again and not feel like so burnt out and. I don't know, isn't that wild that, like, the people doing the frontline crisis work are experiencing really bad mental health themselves and there's not enough support to bolster them like not enough financial stability. Not enough like systemic support to keep them well to keep everyone else well as well.

Oscar: That's so paradoxical. 

MX out

Oscar: So we've covered a lot of things about work and mental health so far, but in the second part of this episode, let's dig a little bit deeper into how it is personally. So for you, Marcus, what's going on with your work life?

Marcus: Okay, so obviously, I'm still in uni. I'm doing my honours in psych, which has been really competitive. But recently, in the past like maybe half a year, or at least I really definitely felt it the second semester last year, is that I started to feel like really burnt out and like kind of losing sight of the long-term like end goal I'm trying to reach, just because there's such an emphasis on just like trying to get the grades, trying to do the best you can for the semester. And that's like, I'm putting so much energy into trying to like do really well. And it's like, I'm just like kind of really tired. And like, I can't really like think about like where I'm going to go with my career.

Asami: Do you mean like you forgot why you're doing this while you’re doing it?

Marcus: Yeah, kind of, yeah, and it's like, yeah, I'm just doing this now because I'm just trying to get a grade, but it's not like I'm trying to do well because I want to get to this point in my career kind of thing.

Asami: Yeah.

Marcus: I don't know.

Asami: Yeah, yeah

Marcus: And I think a lot of that sort of influence or like negative impact on my mental health comes from self -criticism as well. I guess a lot of it is like imposter syndrome as well. Like, it's never so much that like, there's nothing to sort of reassure me externally, like a mark or like feedback from someone that like, yeah, I'm doing okay. But it's more like me trying to convince myself that yeah, I am okay. Like, this is showing me I can do it. And chill out, I don't know.

Asami: I think like even if someone's like, you're doing a good job. 

Marcus: It's so hard to believe. Yeah.

Asami: Why?

Marcus: I don't know. I would love to know why, but I don't, I don't know. I think from my personal reflections, a part of it is because I'm not very confident, so then I'm never really the type to like claim like, yeah, like I can do it like that kind of thing.

Asami: Like, yeah, I am doing a good job.

Marcus: Yeah, because I don't want to be like so confident and it's like, yeah, I can do it like I'm not feeling like an imposter at all. Like that doesn't I don't know. That's just not me I think so then it just but then that feeds into so much self doubt and criticism. So I don't know.

Asami: Yeah, I know we've touched on it before, but do you think it comes from family or culture or like? or like

Marcus: Yes, but like I don't ever really remember my parents being like yeah, you have to get a hundred on everything it was never like that sort of explicit maybe it was more so like Yeah school is important. So you should focus on this or like this should be a priority for you in that sense so then it's like then so much of my worth and my identity has been tied to school. Yeah, like it's kind of like a subtle influence. I don't know

Asami: It's like this is important.

Marcus: Yeah, yeah, what about you guys?

Asami: I think like the imposter syndrome stuff, I'm the same as you, like good things might happen, just say for Shapes and Sounds, but even then it's like, it's like this second level of processing to be like oh, I did, I did well, you know? I don't know, like, but I'm really working on that too. Like I'm really, really trying. And I think something that you mentioned a while ago, Oscar, that I really resonated with was like the idea of like privilege that kind of contributes to imposter syndrome, do you know what I mean? Like you go, you explained it well.

Oscar: Yeah, a thing that I'd been thinking about was like, I definitely feel the same sort of like imposter syndrome or I guess it sort of also feeds into a level of perfectionism. And I think the reason why I tried so hard, I'm a similar to you where it's not like my parents were like, no, you must do well. Um, I think a lot of it came from myself, but I think a lot of that came from a broader look at like, uh, my context. I think knowing how, knowing what my grandparents went through and knowing my privilege as being someone who lives in Australia, uh, lives near a city, that in itself brings you into like, you know, 0.1 % of the whole global population, you know? And I think that that knowledge... is sort of a driver of being like, so what are you gonna do with all of this luck that you've been given in a sense? It's like.I do feel like this pressure where it's like, you've been given the cards, it's up to you to do the most with it. And I think sometimes you can take that to the extreme where it's like, no, I have to do the full potential. I have to completely live up to my 100%. I have to do the thing that's most impactful for everybody. And even in that, that's an impossible goal.

Asami: Um, yeah.

Oscar: And what does that even look like? What does that mean? And I guess there's also a whole bunch of preconceptions about what that means. Maybe that's what the part that comes from culture is like what that looks like. What does success look like? But yeah, I feel like it's just such a strange emotion that like, it's like not a guilt, it's sort of just like a…

Asami: Yeah, what's the word? It's not guilt, is it?

Oscar: You just don't want to let something down.

Asami: Yeah.

Oscar: Like, not necessarily a person, but you just...

Asami: Totally. I completely agree. And I think when you mentioned grandparents, that's what I think about as well, like, imagine, like they had to live through World War II or find themselves at the end of that and they literally like rebuilt their whole entire lives to build this legacy for me here and then it's like, oh, here I am. Like, so, oh, I'm so tired. I'm gonna take a rest day, how dare I do things like that too, right? There's so much pressure, but it's like that pressure is self-inflicted too.

Oscar: Yeah definitely yeah but I'm the enforcer of that like yeah yeah not anyone else like my grandma's not over my shoulder.

Asami: How dare you Oscar. But do you think that that's cultural, that you have so much, like you prioritise your family so much? 

Oscar: Perhaps.

Marcus: I guess so, yeah.  I’ve never thought of it that way. But yeah, I guess so

Oscar: I guess so, yeah. I guess like zooming out though, back to what you were saying in the first place about, I guess like a sort of general anxiety about the future. I'm definitely feeling that as well, like I just want to be clear. Yeah, yeah. I'm

Asami: Yeah. Is this what's going on with your work life?

Oscar: Yeah, definitely, especially after seeing those statistics, like 59% of engineers being unsatisfied with their work-life balance, like, yeah, I'm a little bit scared. Like I don't, who wants that? So like, you know, what's the way that I navigate this? And like, like, will I get a job in something that I'm passionate about? Or even more generally, like, am I on the right path? Is this really what I want? I don't know. It's such a random question to be throwing in there, 

Asami: But I want to ask you, is that your criteria for your work decisions too? I want a job that I'm passionate about, or is it like I want a job that gives me cash to live the life that I want?

Oscar: It's difficult. I feel like that's such a hard question. I don't know. I don't have the answer to that, to be honest, but I think I value too much, like having some sort of a passion for your work where I couldn't just be like, only for money. And I think you actually, there was a statistic somewhere. I think it was a Deloitte write-up that said something like, that said something like... Um, the Gen Z's.

Asami: Gen Zs? It was like the Gen Zs aren't choosing jobs based on money, but they're choosing work based on, does it fulfil my passion and my purpose? What do you both think as Gen Zs? Cause I have a lot to say as like a non-Gen Z.

Oscar: I don't know. I feel like it might be one of those cases of just like, uh, um, selective timing. I'm sure if you went back 50 years, people would care just as much. I don't know. That's at least my guess, but I guess it's a paper. So I'd assume that they're right. 

Asami: It’s from Deloitte? Yeah.

Marcus: I don't know. I think maybe it has to do with like us having so much choice and like being exposed to so many things. So it's like, yeah, like why would I do something that I don't like if there are like five other things I'm passionate about? And I think like, I don't know, like you can like be an influencer or anything right now and like you can earn a lot. So it's like there are so many different career paths that you can do well in. So it's like, why settle for the boring job, you know?

Asami: Boring, 9 to 5 or something. Yeah. I think my take on it is, um, or the angle that I bring is I'm a human that for my whole life, I took it to the extreme. I only, I'm one of those people that took any interest I had and then made it into work, you know? So like when I was very young, I did a lot of yoga. So I took it to the extreme. I went to India and I became a yoga teacher and then I taught full time for like 12 years. And then I was like, oh, I hate this. This is so boring and I've taken away this one thing that's really important to me as well like that was like my own practise and then I Commodified it and then after that it was like music like I love music, All right, let's become a music therapist and let's again turn that important thing in my life into my vocation but then I kind of lost my passion for music because it's a big part of my work. And so then I need a break from the thing that I love. So then it's like really confusing, right? And now like I'm definitely very, very passionate about shapes and sounds, but the way I kind of conceptualise it is like, I'm much more pragmatic. Like now as the director of shapes and sounds, it's not like I'm here, oh, I'm really passionate about this, but actually I'm passionate about the organisation and that means I have to be get passionate about getting the cash to keep us alive and to keep us afloat. And then the passion stuff can kind of come on top, you know, so then.

Marcus: And also staying well outside of work to be able to sustain that passion. 

Asami: Oh, yeah. So then I do the running, but I won't commodify the running. I'll never be good enough. Yeah. I'm like... But yeah, so really thinking about myself as separate from my work. I think like when there's so much around passion, then it was like, I am my work, but now I have a healthy distance from my job. Even though shapes and sounds is like so essential, like I'm still my human self that does the work. And I feel like that really helps in terms of taking care of my mental health.

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Anyway, I think one thing I wanna just side note here is I spoke a lot about like mental health practitioners having poor mental health and feeling unsupported but if you are an Asian therapist, listening to this podcast, know that we at Shapes and Sounds, we support practitioners through our community of practise. So that's where Asian therapists can meet and network and learn like through the journal club that we were talking about. And for everyone else that's listening, like you can access a list of mental health practitioners who are Asian on our website justshapesandsounds.com. And on that website, there are lots of other free services and resources as well. So. If you are struggling with work, one, know that you're not alone. We have a lot to say on this dummy. But two, know that there's lots of things that can support you and mental health practitioners that are also really passionate about supporting you in your work life too.

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Marcus: Something we would like to try this season is a new segment where we'll be asking three questions at the end of every episode before we say goodbye. And we always want to personalise that third question just so it's a bit different for everyone. Since we don't have a guest today and it's our first episode of the season, we'll ask you Asami. So for this week, we'd like to ask you, what do you think about people who are maybe a little bit too close to their work colleagues?

Asami: Okay. Well, firstly, I want to just highlight that Marcus never wants to hang out with us.

Marcus: That's not true, that's not true, it's not all the time. 

Asami: It's not true? We have hang out a little bit 

Marcus: I have a reason every time too. 

Asami: So apart from that, one thing I think is like, like if I go back to my like, full time mental health work, all I did was hang out with my colleagues, you know, because you feel like they're the only ones that understand what you're going through and they're the only ones that have as much of a jarred nervous system as you. So I think that that is bad. That's like really bad. Like sure, you need people that understand what you do, but two, it's like have a bit of distance and the best thing you can do is not have someone at Friday night drinks being like, Oh my God. And like opening up even more stuff that happened. You want someone to be like, what are you doing this weekend? Like, are you going to see this show? Like you need your other friends. So I think if you are going to work in mental health, definitely disentangle. Like, so you're doing a good job Marcus 

Oscar: Okay, next question. All right, I'll give you the next question. My question for you is when was the last time you actually took a mental health day?

Asami: I actually took one, I think it was two weeks ago. 

Marcus: Oh, great. Like a full day off, like leave. Yeah, not like a weekend

Asami: No, no, no, not like a weekend. Actually, it was just a morning, but that counts. Still, better than nothing. Yeah, that's an important morning. I'm pretty sure.

Asami: Oh, no, no. It was a Monday. I took a Monday off my other work Outside of Shapes and Sounds. Yeah. Um, because I was just like so exhausted and I claimed it as a mental health day, not like a sick day. I was like, I'm out. Not like a sick day. I was like, I'm out.

Marcus: Yeah. What did you do?

Asami: Um, I did sit around feeling really miserable.

Marcus: Hmm

Asami: I did a lot of Duolingo.

Marcus: Mm.

Asami: And then I was like, oh, I better go and get some sun. So I took my dog, who doesn't like walking, and I made him walk with me, and he was so unhappy, but it made me feel good. 

Marcus: Oh well, at least one of you is happy. Yeah, yeah. 

Oscar: Okay and for the last question, my question for you is, what is your dream work schedule?

Asami: Okay, I would actually, I like working Monday to Friday.

Marcus: Oh.

Asami: Oh, yeah, I do.

Marcus: like 9 to 5.

Asami: I don't mind it because other people are working at that time. You'll if you do non nine -to -five work, you'll realise like actually a lot of my friends work nine -to -five. So then what's the point?

Marcus: True true

Asami: Um, but I think I would always start with a run or training early morning, but let's not do five. Let's say like six to be a bit more normal. Then maybe like start work at 10, so maybe 10 to five, a bit shorter. 

Maecus: I like that too.

Asami: Do shapes and sounds work like if you at home, like maybe start at home and then meetings in the afternoon, kind of like how we do our Wednesday ones. And then, and then go home, walk my dog, eat dinner, go to sleep like...

Marcus: Not bad.

Asami: 10 p .m.

Marcus: It's very, very routine.

Asami: I actually really liked the routine and then Saturday, Sunday, like completely logged off.

Marcus: Yeah.

Asami: Is that surprising? There's nothing fancy about it, is there? There's nothing fancy about it, is there?

Oscar: Not really. It makes a lot of sense.

Asami: Yeah, I think starting at 10 is a very good time.

Marcus: Yeah.

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Asami: So over the next seven episodes, we'll be talking about work from all different angles. We'll be hearing from a few different guests as well about their work and how they navigated their careers. Every episode will drop on Tuesdays. So keep an eye out and we'd love to hear like, let us know what you think about our theme. Tell us about your experiences at work and mental health. Tell us when you actually took a mental health day as well. That's important. 

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And where you can do that is you can find us on Instagram and LinkedIn and YouTube. @Just Shapes and Sounds. Please like and subscribe to us on your favourite podcast app. You can download this episode for offline listening and share this episode with your friends because word of mouth really helps to destigmatize mental health in Asian communities. So with that…

Marcus: Should we introduce it first? We're starting. We're going to try.

Asami: With that, we're going to do a new sign-off.

Marcus: So everyone stay safe, 

Oscar: stay silly 

Asami: and see you soon.

This is a production from Shapes and Sounds. It’s hosted by Asami Koike, Marcus Lai and Oscar Abe, and produced by Yeo Choong. We’re proudly supported by the Victorian Department of Health’s Diverse Communities Program. All thoughts and ideas you hear are independently ours and our guests’.

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