What coming out to my Brown conservative parents taught me about advocacy. The Asian mental health podcast episode 22

Dom Thattil, influencer and advocate for BIPOC and queer communities, drops into the studio for a chat with Asami about balancing safety with visibility, his relationship with his family and the inner work we need to do to keep ourselves mentally healthy.

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The transcript is available below.

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This podcast is supported by the Victorian Department of Health via the Diverse Communities Program. All information provided is general information only and should not be used in lieu of professional advice.

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Transcript

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Shapes and Sounds acknowledges the Traditional Owners of the lands on which we’re recording and connecting with you from, the Wurundjeri Woi-wurrung people of the Kulin Nation and we pay our respects to Elders past and present.

Asami: Hi, everyone. It's Asami here. This season, as you've heard, we're talking a lot about work. And in today's episode, we're joined by Dom Thatil, who opened up this really beautiful conversation about all the various forms of work that exist. So that's not just your nine to five job, but that idea of like internal work that we need to do as well. And to give you context, Dom is an emerging micro-influencer, writer, speaker and actor. He is the out and proud gay brother of Miss Universe Australia 2020. Thatil is known for his unparalleled charisma and wit. Dom is a passionate advocate for the LGBTQIA+ community. And he's a psychology student, which makes it really relevant to be here with us at Shapes and Sounds. So this conversation that you're about to hear is like a really big convo, but essentially what we talk about are things like being BIPOC and queer, working in the media industry, being an advocate, and how Dom deals with things like different family expectations, choosing the right brands to partner with, and his sister Maria Thatil is a huge support in his life too. I think what I took away from this conversation is the importance of owning your own story and understanding that that story might be really important for someone else to hear as well. So to share things openly and honestly, while also making sure that you're really safe and well too, like taking care of yourself as you advocate and as you share your story. So I hope that you enjoyed the conversation. 

AMH intro 

Asami: So Dom, thank you so much for joining us today.

Dom: Happy to be here. 

Asami: And the theme of this whole season is the silent hustle, work and mental health. So my first question to you is, like, how do you conceptualise and how do you define this?

Dom: Sure. I mean, it's something to actually talk about a lot. I think when it comes to the idea of work, it's a very personal thing that I've had to do for myself. I had to a lot of personal work in understanding that being a polarising person is par for the course, if you are going to try and be an individual, if you're going to identify with yourself, but that took a lot putting myself in uncomfortable situations, a lot unlearning really negative things that I was taught about types of people and certain types of love, which now I practise myself. And I think to me, the silent hustle and the work is all the work I had to do to become the kind of person I want to be for the rest of my life.

Asami: Yeah, beautiful. And can you tell us a little bit about your childhood and your upbringing? 

Dom: Of course I can. Now, it's one of those like, the truth is stranger than fiction situations, but pretty much my dad was a Catholic priest and then he met my mother who definitely swooned him into, I mean they're still very Catholic, but he was like, I want a family with this woman, I can see the rest of my life with this woman and to a degree his side of the family wasn't necessarily so around that. It was almost like the first act that anyone did in my family of breaking the mould of what is deemed acceptable, it was very rebellious thing for a Catholic priest to do, even though he remains within the Catholic faith. But after they married, they had my sister and I, my sister Maria and me in Australia after they immigrated. But they still practise a lot of their conservative Christian values, whilst also practising a lot their racial values, let's say, for lack of better words. And growing up in this country with a Christian white school, I am one of the only brown kids in every hundred that I see and then you come home and it's curry and rice and Bollywood music and you're saying your prayers in a much more diligent way than you even practise them at your Catholic school. I can definitely tell you that gives you a certain sense of warped identity and you are always struggling to think what is the right way to present myself? What is the way to be?

Asami: And tell me about school. Tell me about not seeing many of you around you. What was that experience?

Dom: I mean, it was it was pretty confronting only because I always knew I was gay. I knew was gay since I was little, but I could never say it out loud. Even though I was, you know, Googling like this, what's his name? The guy plays Troy Bolton, Zac Efron shirtless. It'd be like, I'm not gay. Zac Efrón shirtless and it's like things of that nature where it's like I'm in a Christian school where I could not be the only person to have come out. And I'm already this brown person who God forbid my mom's cooked a curry the night before. I know I'm gonna hear about that for the rest of the day. So a lot of what I ended up doing was shaping this identity for myself. I had, God bless this woman, but I had a girlfriend in high school. I don't know if you are familiar with the term beard by any chance. So a beard is a popular term coined by queer people for queer people who date a woman or a man, depending on their circumstance, to hide the fact that they are queer. And this poor person had to unfortunately act as my beard in that scenario. Because I really just didn't wanna look at myself in a real mirror. I'd much rather draw a crayon painting of myself that everybody else would accept, stick it on the wall and be like, hey, look, it's me. And it got to the point where I was wearing light BB cream. So it was almost like white foundation in high-school. Just so my skin looked a little bit lighter. But yeah, I do think as well, again, so when I think about those high- school times, I used to really like disregard those times, almost repress them, because I almost feel like the day I came out at 19, I had to restart my life, find new crowds of people that will accept me. But I look back at those times and it's like it actually taught me a lot about, it was almost like a sample size of, this is what it looks like if you were to conform for the rest of your life.

Asami: Yeah, right.

Dom: You will be something that can fit into the backdrop of society, but will you ever truly be accepted? Will you ever not be polarising? And I've truly learned that that's not ever going to be the case. To certain extent, there is always going to be someone that is polarised by you. And if you are going to get triggered by every single person that is, you are probably never going to do anything for yourself. 

MX in - The Happiest Moment

Dom: And I think once you remove that fear of not being able to conform, you shouldn't care about the fact that you're polarising. You're never going impress everyone. And it really helps me just be like, you know what, I'm just gonna be my truer self, I know I like men, I'm in a loving relationship, I wear what makes me feel comfortable. I'm never gonna appease everybody anyway. 

Asami: It makes me think of that saying of It's better to be disliked for who you are rather than liked by everyone for like this fake character that you're putting on just to appease everyone around you.

Dom: Honestly, though. And I put that on God, that is the truth, I'll tell you. Yeah. I mean, and there's so many different versions of that as well. You'd rather be in a room with three people that you love and trust and are true friends than a room of 15 people that make you feel lonely. And, I think, in that regard, I've got people that I've known for 10 years. My partner and I have been together for seven years. We've seen each other grow in various ways. He's seen me when I had a fringe, for example, a straightened fringe, and he's still with me, so theres that. 

Asami: You say it as if it's like a horrendous thing. 

Dom: On me it is. On me, it is, again, to each their own. Again, there are certain things that befit certain people, but me with the straightened fringe and blue eye contacts and white foundation, it just ain't it. It just ain’t

MX out

Asami: In the context of work and the career paths you've chosen, did you have expectations placed on you about different career paths? And did you then, like, find your journey to do what you're doing now, I think?

Dom: Now I'm glad I'm speaking on the Asian mental health podcast because I know that stereotypes can be very easy to fall into, but I'm talking to fellow Asians about an Asian experience. So I do like this. Pretty much. I was always very good at IT and it's just something that naturally comes to me. I'm the biggest geek in the sidelines you'll ever meet. All of my tattoos are from an anime, a video game from Japan or a manga. It's a whole thing. I've got Berserk here. I’ve got Final Fantasy in my leg. But I've always lived in that tech space, the video game space, the computer space, and everyone always calls me for advice. So I was always told, you need to be the IT guy. And when I graduated VCE, I was told, you need study IT. And I was like, okay, well, I mean, I don't know who I am as a person really, but I'm just gonna jump into the first thing. And I actually think that at that point, I was, like, well the safest bet is IT. And I started the IT degree and look, it was. Fun for what it was. And then they started talking about networks. And it's like, I have never been interested in networks and Cisco routers. And like that is not for me. 

So I ended up stopping that. I'm like, I'll take a gap year. I'll take two. And I think in that time, I ended up actually spending it working on myself and studying myself, studying modes of communication, relationship, behavioural, conversational. And in doing that, it really led me towards the field of psychology because I was like, I've been through a lot, I've witnessed a lot. I've witness certain modes of intergenerational trauma. I've witnesses addiction, I've witnessing toxicity in relationships. And I'm usually commonly the person who's objective to that, giving advice on that. And within my own relationships, I've experienced that too. So if I've learned all these lessons, how can I A) learn why people do tick the way they do and B) how can give back to the community in some way having experienced that myself?

Asami: Yeah, I want to come back to this, but let's rewind a little bit because you said some beautiful things in there. And you spoke about intergenerational trauma. And I want to ask you about your family and you came out to your family. And how did your parents react? And what was that journey like for you?

Dom: For sure. Now, I was deathly terrified to come out to my parents. And I remember I was seeing someone online. I met them on Tinder. They lived in New South Wales. I live in Melbourne. And I really, really like this person, but I was still very closeted. And they had driven down all the way to Melbourne for my birthday. We had a hotel room. We canoodled. I'm not going to be any more explicit than that. But I almost felt this overwhelming urge to be like, This does feel natural to me. I have girlfriends, I worked at a hip-hop club for a little while, and I would try kissing girls at the club. I didn't really feel it. The way I felt it with this one man that truly did care about me at the time, that would make certain levels of effort, and it was just a certain different mode of relationship that I never thought I'd get to experience. So I came home the next day, and... I had to just look my parents in the eye and be like, okay, I'm not hiding this anymore I kissed a boy and I liked it and, okay, you might disown me, you might do whatever, but either way, this is who I am. Like, what are you actually going to do about it? And it led my parents down this rabbit hole of having to realise, because we've had people come out in my family before, not my immediate family, but extended, extended second cousins, let's say, family. And it was not taken very well. It was honestly taken with a lot of disownment. And I saw that happen and it was like, you know what, I think that my parents might be a little bit more understanding, but worst case they're not, this might be the sample size I have to go off where I might be disowned. 

MX in - Rarities

My mum at first, she did eventually come around to it and their whole unlearning journey is still to a degree going on because there's never been a real queer person in my close family. But my dad really just turned around to me and said... Look, I don't understand this, but my only job in this world is to love my kids.

Asami: Yeah, wow. 

Dom: And it was one of those things where it was like, okay, so yeah, that is what a parent should say. But like, are you saying that? Like, what about the Christianity? What about the rigid conservative background? But when my dad expressed to me that being a father is more than all of that, and it's just being there for your kids so long as they're not hurting anybody else. And my dad truly did practise how he views his religion. And it's something that was filled with compassion and love and teaching and loving your neighbour and making an effort for them. And yeah, that's what he said to me. And then my mother eventually came around as well.

MX out

Asami: I actually wanted to say like you kind of make me think about that differentiation between religion and faith and you know like sometimes like religion can come with so much like heaviness around like dogma and you know like it has to be a certain way whereas like so many people who are religious have really strong faith and it's like it's this underpinning that probably connects all religions as well and then it's just so beautiful what your father said about. My job is to be a father to you and to take care of you and love you.

Dom: Exactly. And if he wasn't doing that, he wasn’t doing his job. It was something that it really took me by surprise. But I think one thing that I learned from that is that if an ex-Catholic priest, he's seventy years old now, but he would have been about 62 at the time. If an ex Catholic priest who is of a mature age, of an immigrant background from a conservative country, of a very rigid faith can unlearn some of the harmful negative stereotypes, I truly believe in anyone's capacity to unlearn so long as the education provided to them is compassionate. And truly based in fact and logic. 

Asami: And do you think it's unlearning or do you think it is learning? 

Dom: Well, that's why I think when I said intergenerational healing, I say unlearning, but there is also that element of learning something new, but to learn that new thing, the idea that you're even learning it is that you are accepting this as knowledge. And to do that, you have to unlearn some of the things you've accepted as knowledge prior. And that could be in the sense that you were told that queerness is against the Bible. Without ever being able to quote the verse, but you've taken that as knowledge. But a lot of unlearning takes being able stand objectively to your situation, looking back and being like, okay, so if I was a complete stranger looking at my thought process, what would I say to myself? And I think my dad really did possess the capacity to do that. 

That is not to say that my dad just flicked a switch and my mom flicked a switch. And then three months later, it's like, okay, let's all go to pride together. No, it was still a very much so like, Okay, if this is something you're doing, like, we might still call your partner your friend for the next six months, because it's not something we still have fully learned yet. And I remember when I started working in the media space, and I got invited to this Belvedere, I think it was, no, it was Glenlivet. It was like a whiskey brand. And it was like, Okay, it's a whiskey brand, has a green label. I'm going to buy this epic green jumpsuit. So I put on this green jumpsuits and I'm trying to do the zip up on the back. It was from Forever New. And I'm like, hey, mum, can you zip me up? And she looked at it and she was like, hmm, I mean, what is all of this? Like you know what, you're just wearing like trousers, like you have so many nice suits in the cupboard. And I went, okay, mum I've chosen to wear this because I look damn good in it. I still have the photos. I look gooded in that. I had these like matching green key sunnies, had these high heels on, but I think she was just so taken aback. 

And I remember the conversation was, and I promise you I'm not trying to put you on blast mom if you're listening to this, but the conversation was, look, I understand you're queer, but now you're wearing women's clothes. And then she called my dad. It was like, okay, I made peace with the gay thing, but like, is this like a trans thing now? What's the tea there? Obviously, he didn't say what's the T, but I am paraphrasing in the most colloquial way manageable. 

MX in - Feathers

And, yep, so my sister and I set my parents down. And it was the most simplistic. It's like, if you're willing to be compassionate and listen, this is what I'm telling you. I am wearing this because I believe I look good in it. It does not change my gender identity. It does no change what I told you about the people that I want to be with. It changes none of that. I saw a really cute jumpsuit. I like this, yeah, and I want to wear it. And you know what? I got a matching handbag because it looks cute with this. Funnily enough, they were very open to understanding it like, oh, you know, that's okay.

And now my mum, if she ever needs someone to help her shop, I'm the person she calls, not even my sister. Yeah. If she needs to raid my wardrobe, I'll be like, girl, I've got stuff in your size. Actually did a sports girl colab recently and they were like, okay, we're going to send you a few outfits. And I'm like, all right, cool. Such as two outfits for myself. And then I chose a much larger outfit. I was like, this is for my mom. And I wore it, I styled it. I'm like, okay, take it, it's yours. She's like, oh my God, thank you so much.

MX out

Asami: Did you have support around this as you were working up to these conversations with your parents and your family? Like, did you see a therapist or did you have friends, family supporting you through?

Dom: I mean, I've always had my sister. My sister and I are pretty much best friends in the whole wide world. We always working on something on the sidelines or supporting each other. I do believe mental health is much like a physical checkup. It is something that you wanna check on. But I think that in not having that mental help during that time, other than talking to my sister or my best friend at the time. I did have to almost force myself to be more objective to certain things and treat myself as a case study. It was very interesting because there was even a point where, again, I'm not going to put my ex-partner on blast, but I was dating someone that, let's just say for a lack of better words, was not very good for me and vice versa. I hadn't healed a lot of the intergenerational trauma that I'd been through and I witnessed certain modes of communication within my own familial spaces that were maybe sometimes aggressive or not understanding, and there was a lot of pointing fingers. And I found that come out in some of my own adult relationships. 

I remember it just kept happening where there was three days of fighting and then there's a resolution and you feel sick and then this three days are fighting. And I think after a year of doing that, I almost sat myself down and I was thinking about it almost like an addiction to the resolution. 

One day when I'm a doctor of psychology, I'm writing a paper about this, but I almost coined it as like resolution euphoria where you're almost trapped in toxic situations. Not because you're addicted to the toxicity or because you want more of that punishment, but because of those in all of that, punishment, there are those certain slices of positivity that you almost start craving that after a while and you become addicted to those slivers of positivity that you're delivered once a week and it's worth going through all of the turmoil and it isn't. And it really does take forcing yourself to be objective. I mean, even my sister once told me, I remember it's a very powerful statement of hers. But when you start telling yourself, not why is this happening to me, but what is the gift in this, you can make some really positive changes in your life. And when something really detrimental happens to you, like a breakup or like losing a job, you can almost tell yourself, what is this gift in? Where can I take this from here? Did this happen for a reason on an energetic level?

MX in - The Happiest Moment

Dom: And I think it was bred from some of the things I saw with like, you know, family members and you hear about these arguments and these screaming matches and you see it from such a young age that even at that young age, you think like, that's illogical. What are you actually arguing about? Yeah. And as a kid, you're like, why can't you just stop fighting? Like, this is stupid. And when you're an adult, you almost parrot those arguments and you're like, well, I mean, this was something I was taught was normal. But again, to be able to stand back and like, okay, if I was a stranger watching the way I'm behaving. That is emotional intelligence to me. And I do think everybody has the capacity to do it if they're willing to accept that it's a thing they need to do.

MX out

[BREAK]

Asami: You shared some really beautiful tips about building emotional intelligence, but I'm really curious to know about working in media advocacy. Like, what is, tell us about what that actually looks like 

Dom: Now at least for me, when I do choose to speak in a media platform, I'm going to try and educate first. I will never be like, you are wrong. This is not okay. I believe that everybody in a democracy deserves a certain level of a platform. And if they're not harming anyone else, if it doesn't impede on anybody else, everybody deserves that representation. If you can educate people with compassion, with fact, with logic, with almost a bipartisan understanding of gender politics, things of that nature. You can speak to other people's experiences and say, well, someone who is not harming you is living their life concentrally and happily doing what they want in their own spaces. I think learning how to do that with my parents taught me how to do that, with a much greater audience. So that's really how I navigate that. I would say it's more of an educational thing for me than anything, because I really do believe that that education should have been there when I was trying to discover this stuff myself.

Now, interestingly enough, I think one of the main activities that got me to where I was was almost becoming representation that I never saw. Like, well, I'm not being seen in the space. Can I create that space? And I initially didn't want anything to do with social media other than much like most people,  post a photo of ap lant here and there and me and my dog smiling. And I guess I had the confidence to just post a few photos. Yeah, and then it grew organically. I felt like I looked pretty, and I posted a few pictures, did a bit of advocacy, and it's really just evolved from there.

Asami: And I want to ask you, if you have a platform, it means that you're visible. Can you tell me about how you've navigated visibility? Is this something that feels natural to you? Is it something that you've had to grow into? Tell me more.

Dom: No, this is going to sound really goofy, but before that I was a club promoter and my whole social media presence was promoting this hip hop club that I worked at. I was not my best version of myself when I was working there. I was wearing white foundation and blue eye contacts and I looked like a ghost, which when you think about the origins of a genre like hip hop, it doesn't really veer towards a Caucasian beauty standard, but that is the way that I thought I would fit in. But I really did train myself in how to know, advertise, show myself, be like, hey use Dom's list at the door and after putting myself out there in that regard I think it made me a little bit more comfortable when I finally accepted I want to do something in this field.

Asami: And tell me, you know, social media is wild, like, let's just, you know, call it for what it is. Um, tell me about navigating trolls and keeping yourself safe as well. Because I feel like that's really important when you're taking, when you're doing advocacy work, you've got to care for yourself and make sure you're safe and you're advocating from a place of safety too.

Dom: Of course. Actually, it goes back to, I think there was a moment where I realised it at World Pride. 

MX in - Dust and Dreams

Dom: Pretty much I was at World pride. I'd never looked so sassy in my life. I was in this cute little leotard, knee-high white boots. And I felt myself that whole night. I was like, yeah, this is what it feels like. And when I was walking down the street with my partner after to get some Hungry Jacks, we got spat at by people. We got gagged up by people and at first I reclosed back into my hotel and went, I don't even feel hungry. I just need to process this. 

I spoke about it on my platform and it led to this media storm. We spoke about on triple J on channel nine and it was pretty much, okay, here's the deal. I know that I've gone through this now and it felt like a very niche example. But when a hundred people have reached out to me and said, we've had worse happen, we'd been egged. It made me realise that me having this platform that I have is almost a privilege.

MX out

Dom: So I'd never really had an experience of that magnitude, and it took up until that point. 

I'd say. I've been out of the closet since I was 19. I'm 29 this year, so 10 years now, I've being out of closet. I was walking down the streets in Melbourne after I initially started being more open with myself. I was wearing heels, I was running dresses. And when people would look at me the wrong way, I almost didn't look at it as a safety issue. I was trying to be sassy. I'd be like, oh, whatever, let them stare. But when I was put in a situation that actually showed me. This could compromise your physical safety. It shouldn't have to take someone getting to that point to start prioritising their safety. 

Even when you're trying to own your sense of self identity, do it in groups, walk in spaces. At the end of the day, I want to believe that, you know, we live in a very inclusive world. But unfortunately, so much of the politics that we even see here gets parroted from a very conservative and an almost horribly biased government that's going on in the US.

Asami: I don’t know if I’ll be able to phrase this correctly, you know with all this stuff that's happening in the States, do you think that the experience is different now for young queer people, even thinking about coming out? Like, as you said, when you were 19, things felt very different. Like, do think the world is a more challenging place to be?

Dom: I would definitely say so, but almost in the sense that politics in general, a bit of a rollercoaster in my opinion. I do think that the pendulum does swing to, let's say, really far right. And then the people are like, this is way too much for me. So they swing the pendulum all the way to very left leaning politics. And they're like, This is too much for me, which is kind of what's just happened in the US, where I think sometimes representation can get to the point of being pandering. Because of that pendulum swing. I think the pendulum did lean a little bit to the left. And I think that now people are like, okay, this is too much. That's why DEI is such a big hot topic. Yeah. When you think about the fact that DEI wasn't just for coloured people or immigrants, but for women. And a lot of women are now regretting their choice because they're like, oh, wait, we thought it was just the coloured ones. It's like, no, no sis, it was about you too. Unfortunately, you don't realise those tonnes of conservative exclusionary values. It seems like it's almost saving you from something until it becomes about you too. 

The point I'm trying to make is I do believe that with that pendulum swinging to the right again, a lot of those values are parroted here. Donald Trump wins not even a month later. We're having legislation about trans teens in Queensland. You're not going to have access to the health care. Abortion. All of these kinds of things coming over here, as a functioning, intelligent society, I would hope, with a bit of critical thinking. We can see that this is way too far to the right. Even as someone who believes in self-expression and people's right to freedom, I don't think we need to do an extreme far left either. 

Asami: And on that swing to the far left and the brands, it's like the green washing, but the woke washing, the pink washing as well. Can you tell me, do you have to filter all the brands that approach you? Like, do people assume that you are the diversity face for their brand. Or are you really good at picking and choosing and collaborating with the brands that you want to work with?

Dom: I mean, that's a pretty good question because I struggled at the start of my career, I would say. Like there was a point where it was like, if I do get the privilege to have the opportunity to work with a brand, I will do it in a way where I can almost still feed my advocacy into it. That took a lot of whittling down. At first, I can't say that I was doing that, but having worked with a few brands now understanding the way that organisations actually view diversity, especially now more than ever, a lot organisations are shying away from it just because again, the political pendulum. I will always work with brands that let me advocate for the things I want to advocate for that represent things that I actually use. 

And for example, there's a brand called It Cosmetics. It Cosmetics, they have such a good range of shades and their SPF that when I talk about it, it's not just, I have this great foundation, but it's like, as a brown man who has tried to experiment with makeup and you go to your Priceline, your Chemist Warehouse, you aren't finding that shade, but then I remember I discovered It Cosmetics. And I put that, it was CC plus cream, if you're wondering. I'm wearing it now, great coverage, mattifying and SPF. But I remember thinking, I'm not just gonna talk about this as, wow, look how good my makeup is, but it's like, I love that as a brown person, I have found a makeup that actually looks good on me because you can find a mattifying white foundation in 10 minutes down the street. I'm not finding this shade unless I look for it, which thankfully, I know Chemists Warehouse are really good with diversifying their stuff now. 

Asami: Amazing good to know.

Dom: But that's like the kinds of brands, again, I will try and turn it into an advocacy thing. And if I'm going to be an influence, I'm gonna do an influence with it. It's going to have to be something that motivates people to look at things differently, not conform. That's what my whole life's lessons have been about. 

MX in - Back in My Bag

Dom: But I've had experiences with companies that I've worked with that I won't name in shame today at least and they pretty much made a reel with me as a queer influencer and I did it and they posted it to their TikTok and Instagram and it got over 100,000 views on both platforms and all of the comments were very hateful. Now I had to chase up with my agency and I was like, please, can you curate these comments? Can you at least hide the comments? Because this is not the vibe. And they're like, sorry, we're trying to get around to it. There's just too many of them. You can hide the comments like, oh, sorry we'll get around it. And inevitably a week later, I had to sit through all of that hatred until they were like, hey, okay, here's the deal, we've done it.

Sportsgirl were interesting because they did a collab with me. It was that same one that I like gifted my mom some clothes. And I posted the video, Sportsgirl reshared it, and there was some hate on it. Within the hour, they were, like, hey, we have deactivated the comments because you don't need to see that hate if you saw any of it. We've got actually like platforms that you can speak to people. And I was like, This is how we deal with queer talent

Asami: I think that's fantastic, like bringing actually safety within their processes. It's not just like a nice visual to have done there.

Dom: And I think it's a good lesson for a lot of brands out there that again, there is a lot of pink washing, there's a lot brown washing out there, but to actually protect the talent that you choose to work with because you don't work with people because they're a show pony. You work with them because they are aligned to your brand in some way.

Asami: And it is possible.

Dom: Yeah, like turning off comments takes no more than 20 seconds. That brand. I hope you're listening.

MX out

Asami: So tell me, Psychology, I'm so curious. Okay, we've gone on this amazing journey. You've just shared so much about your life. But what made you think about starting psychology and tell us about this part of yourself?

Dom: For sure. I mean, again, I've been through a certain level of experiences, let's say that they taught me a lot about the human experience in general. When you go through such a nuanced upbringing, again like you have nothing but Eurocentric, like let's just say Caucasian friends and you've got a Caucasian boyfriend and you're looking at the way the world works according to the Western world, but you're always returning to a home where things are done very differently. The food definitely tastes different. The music is inherently different. And having to understand both of that and go through, not just the identity politics of being queer, but also, who the hell am I if I'm not an Indian and I'm not an Australian? It really does force you to teach yourself a lot of things about yourself. In doing so, I became very almost objectively aware of the way I was talking to people, the way I was in relationships, certain arguments I was having, certain friendships I made, concessions I was making for people and concession I wasn't. And after doing that, I found this inherent interest in the human mind. For me, it's really, I would love to know why people take the way they do, not in a sense of I want to like open someone up. It's more of a, I do think that there is a certain level of, if I can understand that better, I can help people with things that I didn't get to understand when I was young. And I do like to educate and teach from my experience, but I can't say that I the certified body to speak on these topics. That's why I'm starting psychology is hopefully one day I can say I've got the paperwork to prove it, bitch. You know, like, I know what I'm talking about. And I do believe I do have a good foundation going into it. And I'm so excited to start it.

Asami: You're going to be amazing and you know, to share what we hear from the community, what people really want is representation amongst psychologists that are available to them.

Dom: That's another thing though. I do commonly say that after the next four years, if Donald Trump is not impeached prior, we are going to need a BIPOC queer psychologist or two after the fact.

Asami: Or two, yeah, or like two or three.

Dom: But we're going to need a few people of a nuanced perspective in the psychology field because it'll be very interesting to see how people are thinking, how things have changed, who needs help with god knows what. Exactly. At that point, at that interstice of politics, if you will.

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Asami: We wanna ask our guests three quick questions to say goodbye. And we always personalise the third question, right? So this one is just for you. Oh yeah. Okay, so the first question is about colleagues. Who are your colleagues and for context, like do you ever feel too close to your colleagues?

Dom: Interesting. Okay, so... I mean, that's a good question. So I actually, we didn't talk too much about the other work that I do, but outside of this, I've worked at call centres, I worked in retail, I have worked in sales. I've even worked at a Tatts Lotto shop at one point. I have done a lot of other modes of work on top of the advocacy and the media stuff. And I do think that I did put myself out there a whole lot more. I do you think when you enter a sphere like this, again, to a degree it's polarising and you start to consolidate and curate your space a lot. Because I'm doing a lot more of the media stuff now than other things. I do think I've consolidated my space to the point where my colleagues are my colleagues, but I have the people I trust. I know that I'm only gonna put myself in safe and happy situations. And if I meet someone that's aligned, sure, welcome to the family gang. But if not, I'm pretty happy to, you know, just interact, if you will. Just be colleagues, right? Just be my colleagues. I think there has to be a certain level of curating your space in any field. And not just because you're gonna get like a leg up in a certain industry or you're going to be a part of a popular group in your workplace. I think that that is so not worth your time. And for me, it never has been and I've done it a lot in my professional life. Curating your space is key, always. And it actually protects your piece in your private life by curating your professional life, for sure. 

Asami: When was the last time you took a mental health day?

Dom: I think it was actually yesterday, to be honest. Funnily enough, so I knew that. Not only was I filming something today, but I'm starting a psychology degree and I had fashion week coming up. I'm still undecided because that might just be a mental health night after a few lectures. But no, it was yesterday. I just, I felt like I was overextending myself a little bit. And sometimes it is a very liberating thing to still show up for people, but no one to show up to yourself. And again, I'm playing in a hundred hour Japanese video game right now. I need some time to myself to do the things that I'm actually interested in. It's a beautiful love story and I want to see it to its end.

Asami: I'm so glad that you had that yesterday

Dom: That's beautiful. Literally yesterday. And if I want to have another one on Sunday after another big week of lectures and tutorials and other kinds of work.

Asami: Yes, and we'll take it in, right?

Dom: I will take it so long as I've got the time to afford it.

Asami: What is the best perk of being an influencer. I feel like we hear a lot of like the bad stuff, but do you get like really interesting things sent to you?

Dom: Um, I do get very interesting things then to me. Mine was going to be a lot more profound, but I will say like, if we're going to be materialistic about it, I've got to say I received some good stuff yesterday. Sports girl beauty. They've just launched a whole new range and they sent me a sample product of all of their new range. So I was like to my boyfriend, okay, I'm got four lip balms. Don't take the mango one. What do you want? And then it's like, okay. And I've go eyebrow gel and now you never used it. Take this. And I'm just like, I put it all on today. I'm like, oh, eyeshadow.

Asami: The Grape lip balm.

Dom: Grape lip balm. And I was even like, you know, I'm going to be sitting in a studio. I'm gonna put on winged eyeliner that I was gifted. I'm to put an eyeshadow just because I have it. So there is a certain level of perk to that as well. Again, I do think there is like a certain little brand alignment as well, I won't really talk about a brand. If they can gift me something and I'll enjoy and live within that gift, but I'm very vocal about like whether or not I'm not going to post something. And if it's a brand that I do align with, I will post with them.

Asami: Dom, thank you so much for this chat. Thank you for sharing your world and your views with us. 

Dom: Happy to be here. Where can people find you online?

Dom: Instagram at Dom Thatil. I'm currently a bit inactive on TikTok but I do need to start using it. So at Dom Thatil, TikTok also.

Asami: Amazing. And we'll link everything in our socials as well. But to everyone listening, thank you so much for joining. 

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Asami: You can find us on Instagram and LinkedIn at Just Shapes and Sounds. Like and subscribe to us on your favourite podcast app. You can download this episode for offline listening. And most importantly, we would love if you could share this episode with your friends, because I would say like that word of mouth really helps to destigmatize mental health within Asian communities and I feel like this chat was incredible. So share it with your friends, share it broadly. So that brings us to the end of the episode and I'm gonna sign off. I'm going to look directly into your eyes as I say this, but stay safe, stay silly and see you soon.

Dom: I'll put that on my agenda, sounds good.

This is a production from Shapes and Sounds. It’s hosted by Asami Koike, Marcus Lai and Oscar Abe, and produced by Yeo Choong. We’re proudly supported by the Victorian Department of Health’s Diverse Communities Program. All thoughts and ideas you hear are independently ours and our guests.

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