Why Therapeutic Rapport Matters More Than You Think: Finding the Right Psychologist for Asian Australians

💡Download the free therapeutic rapport guide that accompanies this episode HERE.

What makes therapy work? Is it the technique, the therapist's training, or something else? In this opening episode of Season 4, Asami and Marcus explore the underrated but essential ingredient in therapy: therapeutic rapport. Especially for Asian Australians seeking culturally responsive mental health support.

From personal stories of EMDR gone too fast, to the awkwardness of 15-minute intro calls with Melbourne psychologists, this conversation unpacks why the relationship between therapist and client is often more powerful than the modality itself. Asami and Marcus share honest reflections on what has (and hasn't) worked in their own therapy journeys, with plenty of laughter and curiosity along the way.

🎧 You'll hear about: 

✅ Why therapeutic rapport predicts positive outcomes across all therapy types 

✅ How validation, challenge, and boundaries shape the therapy experience 

✅ What "green flags" and "red flags" to look out for when choosing a psychologist in Melbourne or Australia-wide

✅ Why cultural competency and Asian Australian identity matters when seeking mental health support 

✅ Practical tips for making the most of a 15-minute introductory call with potential therapists 

✅ The story of how the Asian Australian Mental Health Practitioner List began and why it's still the most visited page on our website

Whether you're new to therapy, looking for a culturally responsive psychologist, or curious about how Asian Australian identity shapes the experience of seeking help, this episode will leave you feeling informed and reassured: you deserve a therapist you can trust, who truly understands your cultural background.

🔗Find culturally competent practitioners on the Asian Mental Health Practitioner List

🙌 Connect with Shapes and Sounds 

Instagram: @justshapesandsounds 

LinkedIn: Shapes and Sounds

Website: https://justshapesandsounds.com 

Watch the episode below or find us on Spotify or Apple Podcasts!

If you found this episode helpful, please subscribe, share, and leave us a review on your favourite podcast app. Your support helps us reach more people and break down stigma around mental health in Asian Australian communities. 💛

Transcript:

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Asami: Hi Marcus! 

Marcus: S'hello. 

Asami: Welcome back to season four of the Asian mental health podcast. Yay. And hi, Oscar. Oh. Where's Oscar? Okay. That didn't go as planned. Acting skills are not so good, but everyone, our third musketeer, our best friend, Oscar is not in the room with us, as you might be able to see if you're watching. That's because to be really transparent, Shapes and Sounds is a tiny, tiny organization. And Oscar's role is like really continuous. Like it just goes on and on every single week because he's on the social media and making all the content for us. A bit different to your role, right? Which kind of has peaks and flows. Peaks and troughs. 

Marcus: Yeah. 

Asami: And so Oscar is sitting out of recording for this season, but he is busy making all of our YouTube videos. So please make sure you go and watch them. So to the ghost of Oscar, anyway, Maccas, since season three, what have you been doing with your life? 

Marcus: Honestly, it doesn't feel like much, but just uni. I caught COVID again. 

Asami: Yeah, is that your second? 

Marcus: I think so, yeah, unless it's my third, but I don't think I call it, no, I think it's my second. 

Asami: I think that's the only time you've ever been sick since I've known you. 

Marcus: Yeah, yeah, yeah so did that but thankfully it wasn't too bad and then went to Vietnam for a holiday 

Asami: That's amazing. 

Marcus: What about you? 

Asami: Similar, I went on a holiday too. 

Marcus: Mm-hmm 

Asami: I think it was like my first proper holiday. So often, you know, I get to go to Japan, which is great, but it's like to see family. So it's never quite a holiday. It's not like a true holiday, right? But I went to France and Italy, which was so much fun. 

Marcus: Mm-hmm. So nice. 

Asami: So nice. And then I came back and went straight into like trying to undo all of that damage that I did to my body over four weeks. 

Speaker 4: Mm-hmm 

Asami: in like hard training. So that's what I've been doing. And then I also finished up in my part-time role. So now I'm full-time at Shapes and Sounds. So like a lot, right? But anyway, Marcus, what are we going to talk about in Season 4 of the podcast?

Marcus: So this season we will be interviewing a lot of the practitioners from our Asian mental health practitioner list but before we dive into it, let’s talk about how it started. Can you give us the history? 

Asami: So in 2020 is pretty much when shapes and sounds kind of emerged as, anyone that messaged shapes and sounds, the only question they would have was, do you know any... Like Asian therapists, do you know any Chinese therapists? Do you know, any Indian therapists? That was the only question that people cared about. And so then I was like, oh, maybe this is what holds so many of us back from seeking therapy. Like we can't find a therapist of a s imilar cultural identity as us. So then I just started to make a list. Um, the first person that I contacted was Phoebe Lau from The Inner Collective. Oh, yes. You know Phoebe? Yep. She's got like such a great photo. Yeah. 

Speaker 4: Yeah. Yep. 

Asami: Phoebe was so amazing and she was the first, literally the first person that I found and the first person that said yes, I would love to join. And since then the inner collective have grown so much as a practice and they have so many different practitioners. 

Marcus: Yeah. 

Asami: Many of whom you can find on the list. And that list still is the highest ranked page on our website. So you can see people are really searching for this. And so we’re continually trying to grow that list. And we’ll talk more about that list in a bit.

MX in - Zero

In this season, we want to share some of the practitioners' stories, like some of the therapists' stories because I think there's so much like shame or stigma or fear around seeking therapy. But if you could know that your therapist has gone through some really tough times as well, then maybe it like makes it a little easier. 

Marcus: Mm, like kind of reassuring. Yeah. 

Asami: Do you think so? 

Marcus: Yeah, it's like so then I know they're a real person with real people experiences. 

Asami: Yeah, like real problems, right? Yeah. And like If you know someone's story, you can feel closer to them, you can feel like more trusting, and that all leads to a good therapeutic relationship or therapeutic rapport. And we'll talk about why that is so important throughout this episode.

MX out

So on that topic, Marcus, I want to hear about all the experiences of therapy that you've had and like that relationship that you have developed with therapists, right? If you look back at different therapists that you have worked with, what has stood out to you? 

Marcus: Hmm. I think it would have to be a therapist who can really validate my experience. I guess like the sort of therapy technique they use. I've tried different techniques as well. And like some techniques do stand out as more effective, but I think at the end of the day, it's like, this is I guess a really simplistic way of putting it. But it's, like, when I'm kind of describing something and the reflection they give is like. It's almost like they can read my mind and it's like, this is kind of the feeling I'm feeling before I even describe it to them. So like I'm describing the situation and then they're like, oh, like, yeah, that must feel so like this way. And it's, like yeah, like that's exactly how I feel. So I think that kind of thing. Yeah, like kind of validation. 

Asami: I like that. Has anyone ever got it wrong though? They're like, Oh, that must've been so hard. And then you're like not really. 

Marcus: Yeah, I guess so, like, but then I don't think that really puts me off that much. It's just kind of, in that kind of instance, I just try to explain a bit more. 

Asami: Yeah, like I know actually it wasn't like that. 

Marcus: Yeah, because I guess it's kind of important for a therapist to know that kind of stuff. 

Asami: And I guess what you're describing, like that is validating, right? Like when someone's like, I did blah, blah, blah, and I felt blah, blah, blah. And then if the therapist is like, yep, that sounds like it would have been really blah, blah, then that's an act of validation. Yeah. And then you feel validated. 

Marcus: Yeah, and I guess it's probably different for everyone. Like I personally find the validation to be quite helpful. Maybe that's because I guess like validation or like emotional literacy isn't so like good in the social relationships like my family. So stuff like validation is probably more helpful in the sense because I don't get that a lot outside of a therapy context. Whereas like things like, oh, like maybe you can rethink this problem this way or like. Um, have you, yeah, like just giving me a different kind of perspective, which I guess is quite common in therapy as well. Like, I guess that to me is perhaps not as useful because like, I don't know, like I think I'm quite used to like having introspection already. So it's like, then yeah, I dunno. So I guess it's kind of like looking for what suits you. And yeah, it's, like, there's no one sort of good thing about therapy that works for everyone, I. 

Asami: Yeah. 

Marcus: But yeah, what about you? 

Asami: Uh, maybe I'm the opposite actually to you. Okay. Cause I feel like I like when people. 

Marcus: Like challenging you. Yeah. 

Asami: Oh, like help me to see my blind spots. 

Marcus: Hmm 

Asami: I think like therapists who have really good strong boundaries and it's kind of like an energetic boundary, I feel like I think sometimes in therapy, so many weird things happen that it's like, unless a therapist is very grounded in themselves and they feel quite comfortable in themselves, or at least they're aware of like these weird power dynamics that are happening within the room. I feel like they can get really entangled in your story. 

Speaker 4: Hmm 

Asami: and connect like sucked into your. 

Marcus: In your chaos. Okay. Do you have like examples? Like what do you mean? Like this sounds kind of like crazy. 

Asami: I wonder what's happening. Okay, so I'll tell you two experiences that I've had of EMDR. And EMDR is Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing. You know, the one with the eyes, right? It's really intense on your nervous system. And I've two experiences of this with two different psychologists. Yep. And one. I rushed them through the process. I was like, I'm just here for EMDR. Just give me the EMDR and by session three, we were doing really hardcore EMDR, right? And then it was bad. I got sick, all that kind of stuff. 

Speaker 4: Yep, okay. 

Asami: With another therapist, my more recent therapist, I was like, listen, I'm here for EMD, I've done it before, let's just like. 

Marcus: I want to fix my trauma. Cure now. 

Asami: Let's go. And then she was like, Oh, okay. I can see that you're like really, you know, like you're really interested in this. Um, let's just like slow the pace down. Have you ever tried this other kind of EMDR, which is really slow? Yep. Have you even heard of this one? It's like really slow, like if there was a rhythm, it would be. 

Marcus: No, I've only ever tried the fast one. Fast one, right? The fast one, and then they kind of slow down. 

Asami: Yeah, so what I liked about her coming back full circle, what I liked is like, I think she did an amazing job by not getting sucked into my urgency and my like, just get it done quickly. 

Marcus: But she was like, no. Like she was in control. Yeah. Yeah. 

Asami: Yeah, yeah, she was in control and she knew like 

Marcus: I think that's so important. 

Asami: I like that because I think people can get really sucked into people's stories. 

Marcus: Yeah, and it just becomes too much drama. 

Asami: Do you have to drive like everyone's rushing? Everything's fast, right? What would you say has worked or not worked for you? Anything in particular that you remember? 

Marcus: Okay, this is one example I can think of off the top of my head. Like, obviously, there's a time limit in therapy, right? So sometimes I feel like when it gets to the end of the session, it's like, maybe like five minutes, then obviously they're not going to ask you more questions than I try to. Prop new things or whatever, but it's like, and I've kind of felt like in those instances, they kind of just keep talking at you until the time runs out because they don't want you to bring up new information. But then it's, like, there's still a bit of time left. So they're just repeating the same point over and over again until the time is up. 

Asami: And then they're like, oh, and that brings us to the end of that. 

Marcus: Yeah, and then they're like, oh yeah, so this is like what you should do, and yeah, wrap. That feels a little weird to me. 

Asami: That's so funny, actually. 

Marcus: Yeah 

Asami: I never thought about that, like, the time pressure to be like, yep, Marcus, yep. 

Marcus: Yeah, I guess it's a skill like I guess It makes sense that they're obviously not going to ask you new things, but then it's like how do you Really effectively use that last Five minutes like instead of you just kind of talking at them, you know 

Asami: Yeah! 

Marcus: I don't know, what do you think? 

Asami: Um, I, I do this or I have in the past and in like supervision and stuff too, but I'll be like, okay, looking at the time, we've got about five minutes to go. Is there anything you want to say to wrap up or you want anything you want to talk about to summarize? So then already you're like. 

Yeah, you're like, I'm not interested in the next point. That's how we more, yep. That's good. Yeah, right? Yeah. So maybe that's like one of those, okay, I am on the clock kind of skills without making it feel dismissive. 

For me, I think without sounding very judgmental, the therapist's cleanliness, dirtiness, is something that really, like, I pick up on a lot. 

Marcus: I mean, that's so fair, I think, like, I don't think that's weird. Like, yeah, no, for sure. Because because you're sitting in front of them for like an hour. Right. And like, the whole point is like, it's supposed to feel comfortable, you know, like not to sound judgmental, but it's like also kind of just a reflection on the therapist themselves.

Asami: Because the way you take care of yourself, that self-care is like an indication of your mental health too. 

Marcus: Yeah 

Asami: If you cannot take care of yourself, then you might be really tired. You might be burnt out. 

Marcus: Yeah. 

MX in - What’s Going On 

Asami: And that's not your fault, but still, like if I'm sitting in front of a therapist that looks really burnt out, that looks really tired, messy, you know? 

Marcus: I don't know if I feel comfortable like telling them all my shit, you know, like it's like oh maybe you need a rest too, you know like 

Asami: Like, I don't want to bid and you get all my problems. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. 

Marcus: No, no, I got that. I got 100 percent. 

MX out

Asami: What is the definition of therapeutic rapport? 

Marcus: So this is a definition I pulled from the internet, but it's the ability for the client and the therapist to collaborate effectively and mutually agree upon treatment plans and goals. 

Asami: I guess in layman's terms. 

Marcus: That's just like how comfortable you feel with a therapist, I feel. Like, whether or not you really feel like you can trust this person enough to, like, tell them things and, like, really be yourself when you tell them things as well, I think that's the important part. Like, yeah, obviously it can feel hard to, like really be yourself and be extremely vulnerable with someone you don't really know. 

Asami: Yeah. 

Marcus: So yeah, I guess that's how I would see therapeutic rapport. 

Asami: And maybe it's like what you say about, um, like mutually agree on treatment plans and goals, like you actually need that, that feeling of teamwork to trust someone to be like, okay, we are both going in the direction that I agree to. Otherwise, if you don't feel trust, then you don't know where that person's trying to take you. 

Marcus: Definitely. 

Asami: That's all about trust. As a therapist. Um, and I think you'll do this like in your clean psych stuff, but we spend so much time learning how to build therapeutic rapport. It's interesting, right? Like it's actually a skill that you just develop and it's all about how you sit, how you place your body, how do you look at someone, how you move your hands, like where to... Where to nod? 

Marcus: Like they actually tell you that. 

Asami: Yeah, it's called Solar. 

Marcus: Oh, so love. 

Asami: And sit square, open posture, lean in. 

Marcus: Okay. 

Asami: And R, relax, you know, so you can't be tense as a therapist, you can be like, you know, and they teach you like, um, you know, you can't like fidget. Yeah, like a relax. 

Marcus: Yeah, like a relaxed, open body language, whatever, yeah. 

Asami: Even like how to, how to look like you're listening. So it's actually a skill, right? And I would say you do it. 

Marcus: Really? 

Asami: I think so. 

Marcus: And I know you definitely do it. Really? Yeah, you definitely you do it, yeah. 

Asami: Oh, tell me more, Marcus. Tell me more. I want to tell you some horror stories as well about like, just a culturally responsive counseling skills, which it wasn't even called that. It was just probably like a two hour tutorial about like working with people from other cultures. Okay. Listen, I don't know if things have changed. This was about 10 years ago, but all I remember is like, you know, eye contact is important. 

Marcus: Okay. 

Asami: But then they, I learned some cultures, they don't like eye contact. So make sure you don't give too much eye contact 

Marcus: Otherwise you might have been. 

Marcus: Like 

Asami: And that's all I learned from that session. 

Marcus: And there was no nuance to it like that's just a fact 

Asami: That's a fact. Maybe the Asians don't like eye contact. But I've never, I've never applied that, ever. I've never come across. 

Marcus: Yeah. 

Asami: A person or a young person of a different cultural identity and being like. 

Marcus: Like, I can't look. 

Asami: I better tell me more, like I've always done eye contact. So I don't know. Do you think that's real? 

Marcus: I think it just depends on the person. I guess some people don't like eye contact, but it's not like because of their culture, I don't think. Like, culture can influence that, but you're from this culture, so then you don't like eye-contact. 

Asami: Right? It's not so simple. 

Marcus: Yeah, it's not. And it's like, why don't they like eye contact, you know, like, maybe every person has a different reason. 

Asami: Yeah, I never learned that. Yeah. I just learned it's not respectful. 

Marcus: Sure. 

Asami: Very, right? Yeah. Anyway, it's got a lot of- All other cultures. 

Marcus: All other cultures that are not white. For sure. 

Asami: they didn't even teach things like, like open posture, like gender dynamics within the room. You know, like, I think that's an important consideration. Like maybe if you're a man and you have an open posture and you're leaning forward and your client is a young female. 

Asami: Then that could be really threatening. So everything has to have new ones. Anyway, that's like a commentary on counseling skills, but I want to know because I have read in different, you know, like tidbits of research and whatever, and I've learned this through my masters and then I forgot about it, but i want to ask you this, Marcus, like in the literature, they say that therapeutic rapport, this connection that you have with your therapist is like kind of the only thing that matters when it comes to therapy, but Is that true and what does the literature say? 

Marcus: Well, the literature definitely says that's true. And if we kind of look at all the different papers that have explored the relationship between how much rapport there is and outcomes of therapy, that effect is quite consistently found across all of these different study. So 

Asami: Consistently, yes. 

Marcus: Consistently that this is the most important thing. 

Asami: Yeah, well, yeah, interesting, hey. 

Marcus: Yeah, and what they do find as well is that all of these studies have like, they might be looking at different kinds of therapies, like different modalities. They might have looked at different kind of aspects of therapy as well, like whether or not the therapist really follows the training, whether or or not they're competent or etc. But therapeutic rapport is the one thing that kind of comes up on top that is the most important thing. Wow. Yeah, across all these different kinds of therapies. 

Asami: Yeah, interesting, hey? 

Marcus: Yeah. 

Asami: So not just in psychology, but in other modalities, other therapeutic engagement services, engagements. Therapeutic report is still important, okay? 

Marcus: And then on the other hand, then, like, poor therapeutic rapport is quite predictive of clients  dropping out. So yeah, I guess if you don't really have a strong connection with the person you're sitting in front of, I think it kind of makes sense that you wouldn't want to keep talking to them. So yeah. Like that. 

Asami: Yet again, it highlights how important it is. 

Marcus: Like, I guess, yeah, the end messages, it's really important. 

Asami: I think that makes sense, but don't you think it's funny that people consistently forget this? As in like, if this is like the number one thing, you would think- 

Marcus: This is what they would focus on and stuff, yeah, I guess, yeah. I guess yeah. 

Asami: I don't think we talk about it enough. 

Marcus: Yeah, and I guess some people, I guess they get so... Maybe this is me generalizing and whatever, but maybe some of the therapists get so caught up with just like helping people get better that it's like, okay, we have to do this modality, this modally, and that's like let's get through this course of EMDR and then you'll feel better. But then it's maybe like the rapport is like what's most important in here. 

Asami: Yeah. 

Marcus: I don't know. What do you think? 

Asami: It's like very humbling as a therapist to be like, here I am, especially someone like you, you'll do like 10 years of study. 

Marcus: Mm-hmm. 

Asami: You know, so much study, hours and hours of placement, so much reading, so many assignments. And then at the end, you're like, Oh, it's just about how well we get along. Yeah. That's actually quite humbling. 

MX in - Jonquilla

Marcus: Yeah. And even if you just think about like, I guess it's different if you work in a public system, but in a private system, if you don't have good people skills, like you probably won't get referrals and like just from a job perspective, like maybe you just won't really get a lot of clients. Yeah. So, yeah. 

Asami: You might be the best in your class. 

Marcus: Yeah. 

Asami: But if you don't have that ability to sit with someone, have a bit of chit chat. 

Asami: Have some have a laugh. I think that's humbling. Yeah.

MX out

Do you think that therapeutic rapport has to remain good all the time? Or does it change? 

Marcus: Um... I think in therapy, it's expected that like there are some points of resistance where I guess the practitioner starts to challenge what you might think, any sort of like, you know, like what you were saying, like blind spots that like you might miss. So I guess in those instances, I guess therapeutic rapport might feel a bit... Weakened, maybe from the client's perspective, maybe not so from the therapist's perspective. But there is actually this really, really old paper that I looked at once. It's saying that therapeutic relationships that kind of have a U shape, so going from really good at the start and then they dip down to being more bad. Like bad, like storming. Yeah, like that kind of thing where like, I guess the therapist is trying to like challenge you and like really help you. Get through those, I guess, more rigid and like bad thinking patterns you might have. And then to be able to come back up out of that and have a good relationship at the end, that kind of pattern of therapeutic relationship tends to lead to the best kind of therapeutic outcomes. But this is very, very odd research. 

Speaker 5: Yeah. 

Marcus: I don't know, like I think it makes sense in my head because it's like, especially being able to come out at the end strong. Yeah. I feel like you would learn a lot about yourself. 

Speaker 5: Exactly right. 

Marcus: That I guess is the kind of point of therapy like stuff you realize that you can't really do on your own 

Asami: Yeah, and like it would make that relationship stronger, like any relationship gets stronger with a bit of conflict, conflict as such. 

Marcus: Definitely. 

Asami: Even if it's old, I think it sounds valid. 

Marcus: Yeah, like theoretically it makes sense, but I guess like how they kind of tested that. Like, I don't know. I didn't really look into that, but theoretically it make sense in my head. 

Asami: Theoretically, it makes sense. It makes me think of like friendships as well. If you only have friends that you just have a laugh with, it's different to a friend that you can kind of have a bit of an up, like a downtime with, and then... 

Marcus: Like, you've kind of been through it. Yeah, right. That's the kind of friendship that is more, it brings more value, I guess, to your life. Like you kind of learn things about them. You kind of learned things about yourself. And then you come out and then you're like, you've been better friends. 

Asami: Yeah. Yeah. 

Marcus: No, that's a good analogy. 

Asami: Okay, I want to ask you, so we're, we're talking about therapeutic rapport. It's the best thing ever in therapy. If then, if therapy is all about building therapeutic rapport, then do we need to go to a therapist? Like, can we just talk to our friends? 

Marcus: Um, well, short answer, no. I guess like first reason is like your friend is not a therapist and I don't yes we obviously were saying like the report and like the sort of level of comfort you feel with the therapist is the most important but like I guess the report is important for them to be able to do their work effectively and like that work or like the skill is something that a therapist has like. A therapist will have the skills, will have the training to be able to more effectively deal with any sort of distress that you have. So yeah, I guess if you just want someone to have a rant to, yeah, your friend can do that, but in instances where I guess the things you're doing aren't really helping anymore, even after you chat with your friends, you don't really feel much better than, yeah. In those instances, seek therapy if you can. 

Asami: I like that. It's like, that's a really good indicator about when there's a difference between, because you do need to express yourself to your friends and they need to know what's going on, but you're saying like, if you do it a few times and you just don't, it doesn't do anything for you, then maybe it's time to see a therapist. Do you know what I think? I think I would even prefer to go to therapy. 

Marcus: Mm-hmm 

Asami: rather than, like, telling people what's going on. Because it's like, you just pay someone to... 

Marcus: To listen to. I guess so. 

Asami: You don't have to feel like you're burdening anyway. 

Marcus: No, that's true. No, actually I was the same. Right? Yeah. 

Asami: Right? It's like, actually, I don't want to put this on you. 

Marcus: Yeah, and there's someone who's like, that's their job to listen to. 

Asami: So you take my nonsense. Maybe, huh? Yep. So maybe people like you and I, maybe we need to talk to our friends more. 

Marcus: Mm-hmm, maybe 

Asami: It's nice to have someone that knows all the active listening skills. 

Marcus: Yeah 

Asami: Right. Oh, maybe another example is if you talk to your friends, but you feel like they're not really listening or they're like a bit sick of you telling you all their problems. 

Marcus: Yeah. 

Asami: And you just get that they're not really there for you kind of feeling. Yep, yeah. Then there are people that will actively listen to you. 

Marcus: True. 

MX break - Jazz Messenger

Asami: What advice do you have to someone who is about to step into therapy and they're looking through psychologists, maybe they're, looking through our shapes and sounds practitioner. What advice would you give them? How do you assess for therapeutic rapport on like our website or just like a database. 

Marcus: I don't know if I have a really constructive suggestion, but I think the photo is so important on the profile. It's just like, it's just, if you go into like a lot of different practitioners websites, they have like a little blurb and they're like, uh, I'm a person centered therapist and then I can do this, this, this, this kind of therapy. 

Speaker 5: Thank you for having me. Thank you. 

Marcus: And then, yeah, on the weekends, I like to walk my dog kind of thing. I feel like it's hard to be really creative with that kind of messaging on your website. Everyone is different, like just because they're therapists doesn't mean like they're just one kind of person. So I feel like just find the kind of person you think works best for you, someone who's a bit funny, someone who is a bit serious, I dunno. 

Asami: If you've gone on vibe in the past, has it been accurate? Has it worked out? 

Marcus: Not always, I would say, yeah. 

Asami: It's hard because we look through our photos on our website, they're like seven years old. 

Marcus: Five years old. Yeah. And it's like, I don't know, not everyone takes the best photos, but like, they could be like the best person ever, so. 

Asami: Yeah. I don't know. The message to the therapists, right? Your photo is so important.  I think another thing to think about is a lot of the time, if you are searching on a website, you really don't known until you take action. And that's just a rule in life, right. Like just generally speaking, you never know the answer until you take action and try and then you're like, okay, that was good. That was bad. But I think the good thing is a lot of therapists will offer a 15 minute free introductory call. Yeah. And that's a really important time for both them to suss out you, but for you to sess them out as well. How would you make use of that 15 minutes? 

Marcus: Um, I'm trying to think back to like what I've done. I actually don't think that my last one had a 15 minute consult. 

Speaker 5: You just have to go. 

Marcus: Yeah, just when like the first session was just like me blurring everything. But if I had that, I'd probably ask like. Hmm, I don't know, like whether or not they've worked with other Asian clients or like just to sort of test like their level of cultural competence. Yeah, I guess I think that is important. 

Speaker 5: I think so too. 

Marcus: From a general sort of perspective as well, I'd want to know what they plan to do, I guess. 

Asami: Yeah. 

Marcus: Um. 

Asami: Oh, like, if you were going to work with me, what would you do? 

Marcus: What's your case plan now? 

Asami: Yeah, don't be your formulation now. 

Marcus: Um, but yeah, what about you? 

Asami: I think it's like, I suspect that they would have a lot of questions for you, right? Like they probably have some kind of a template that they follow, but I think what I do, like I did in my last 15 minute free call, slash what I would generally do is like, as you're talking, you really try and listen to how they respond to you. So if, I don't think I've ever asked this actually. But if I asked, have you worked with any Asian people in the past, then the answer doesn't matter. It could be no, it's like whatever, but if they were really weird about it, like yesterday I had a meeting. 

Marcus: Okay. 

Asami: And it was like with the peak body, which I won't tell you the name of. 

Speaker 4: Okay. 

Asami: And they wanted to, I can't, I need to tell you without telling you the specifics. 

Speaker 4: Mm-hmm. 

Asami: But anyway, they were doing something, right? And I, and they wanted something for me. They wanted me to look at it from like an Asian community perspective. Yep. And so then I asked them, um, well, how have you worked with Asian people in the past? Yep. And then the answer was so weird. 

Marcus: Really? 

Asami: It was so weird, they were like, well... 

Marcus: It's like frantic, like... 

Asami: Yeah, it was so uncomfortable and they were like. Just like anybody else, like everyone, you know, they did like the everyone is equal kind of answer. No, no, no. And I was like, oh. So that's a good indicator, right? Like how people respond. If they had just been like, listen, we've never considered it before. That's why we're changing things. Yeah. And that's why we're talking to you. Yeah, like open. I'm talking to you. 

Marcus: Like open to, yeah. Yeah. That's a perfect answer to me. 

Asami: So it's like, always listen to how a therapist responds to you. And then as they're talking and as you're sitting in that 15 minutes or on the phone, just check in with yourself to be like, do I like this person? Like, do feel comfortable with this person. Do I feel like, like I could tell them things that are really kind of vulnerable and open. I think you will get a gut feeling. Yep. In 15 minutes. 

Marcus: I agree. 

Asami: I think 15 minutes is enough time. 

Marcus: I think so too. 

Asami: And then trust that feeling too, right? Yeah. Because I can imagine if you're trying to go to therapy, you've been looking for someone, you finally get a free call, you're like, ah, I'll just take this one. I don't even care. Yeah. But it's like, trust yourself. 

Speaker 6: Definitely. 

MX sting 8

Asami: If you are listening and if you have been thinking about finding a therapist, please know that we have a database of over 100 Asian mental health practitioners all across Australia, except for a few states because we cannot find people in Tasmania. If you're in Tassie, please contact us. Also I should tell everyone, Marcus, that we are updating the website at the moment. By the time this launches hopefully there'll be parts that are ready as well we're really focusing on updating the list and in people's profiles we're adding more things in like video, photos, food that people like, favorite quotes, their zodiac animal, I've even asked that. 

Speaker 4: Mhm. 

Asami: And so hopefully when you're looking at the profile, it's not just their photo, but you get a bit more of a sense of who they are. We also share interviews as well every month, right? So we want to create all these opportunities for you to get a sense of the therapist, see if you might be good to work together. So please check out our website. We'll link it below, but it's just shapes and sounds.com. Oh, that's weird. Just shapes and sound.com and to be honest, like I'm excited in this season to hear those backstories of the therapist that we're going to interview and like hear some of the challenges that they've experienced and I want to know like as a therapist, like are they better at getting through it? 

MX in - AMH theme

Thank you so much for listening and you can find us on Instagram and LinkedIn at Just Shapes and Sounds. Please subscribe to this podcast and leave us a review on your favorite app, your favorite podcast app. Because that really helps other people to find us. Download this episode for offline listening. 

Marcus: We're like, did you see what was too bad? 

Asami: This is going to age poorly, but most importantly everyone, please share this episode with your friends because word of mouth really helps to de-stigmatize mental health within Asian communities. So Marcus, it's wonderful to be back in the studio with you. You can do the old sign up if you want. 

Marcus: I'm sure no one wants to hear it. 

Asami: Anyway, I'm looking forward to this season, it's good to be back and we'll chat soon. Bye. Bye.

~

Keywords: therapeutic rapport, Asian Australian mental health, culturally responsive therapy, Melbourne psychologists, finding the right therapist, cultural competency in psychology