Understanding Internalised Racism: How Asian Australians Can Heal Identity Shame with Counsellor Jackie Ha

🎁Free resource: Download your guide Navigating Internalised Racism HERE.

✨ How does internalised racism shape the way we see ourselves, and how can we begin to heal? In this episode, Asami speaks with Asian Australian counsellor Jackie about identity, shame, and the subtle ways racism becomes internalised within Asian Australian communities. From distancing ourselves from culture to finding laughter in shared stories, Jackie offers honesty, warmth, and practical insights for anyone navigating the impact of internalised racism in Australia.

🎧 You'll hear about: 

✅ What internalised racism is and how it shows up in everyday life for Asian Australians

✅ How shame and belonging are tied to racism and exclusion in Australian society 

✅ Why storytelling and humour can transform pain into connection 

✅ Finding culturally competent mental health support as an Asian Australian

💡 Episode Highlights:

• Jackie's reflections on Asian Australian identity, shame, and survival strategies
• How internalised racism can impact mental health and belonging in multicultural Australia
• The role of community and culturally responsive therapy in unlearning patterns
• Finding joy and laughter as part of the healing process
• Practical steps for Asian Australians seeking mental health support

🧠 Key Insights from Jackie:

• Internalised racism isn't a personal flaw, it develops from systemic racism in Australian society
• Shame grows in silence; sharing our experiences with culturally aware therapists helps us realise we're not alone
• Laughter can be healing, softening pain and creating connection within Asian Australian communities
• Cultural competency in mental health practitioners makes a significant difference

👤 About the Guest: Jackie is an Asian Australian counsellor who works with compassion, curiosity, and cultural sensitivity. She supports clients to navigate identity, belonging, and healing from the impacts of racism in Australian society.

🌐 Find Jackie and other Asian Australian mental health practitioners over on the Asian Mental Health Practitioner List

📱Jackie's Instagram: @morrow_endeavour

🙌 Connect with Shapes and Sounds 

Instagram: @justshapesandsounds 

LinkedIn: Shapes and Sounds

Website: https://justshapesandsounds.com 

Watch the episode below or find us on Spotify or Apple Podcasts!

If this episode resonated with you, please subscribe and share to help other Asian Australians find culturally aware mental health conversations. Your support helps break down stigma in our communities. 💛

Transcript:

Jackie: He was chewing gum loudly, so that was one thing. He kept going on his phone and then at times it looked like he was nodding off, closing his eyes and I was like... He was just not picking up on social cues at all, you know, like not reading the room. It felt for me like I was internalizing racism because I was sitting with, Oh my God, like, can you not do that? You're making us look bad. I wasn't seeing him as an individual. I was seeing him through the lens of how white people... 

~

Hello there it’s Asami here,

Have you ever felt really embarrassed by other Asian people? And then, to complicate things, have you then felt guilty that you felt embarrassed by that in the first place??

It gets complicated, but that’s exactly what this episode is all about.

Today, we’re joined by one of the Shapes and Sounds asian mental health practitioners, Jacqueline Ha who is the founder of Morrow Endeavour Counselling & Psychotherapy here in Melbourne. 

Jackie shares her experiences of both external and internalised racism and how she really struggled with self-rejection for a very long time. 

This episode will show you how you can feel a sense of belonging within your cultural identity, how to work through feelings of shame, how deeply examining your reactions, can help you come to terms with internalised racism.

~

Asami: Hi. Thank you so much for being here today. And thank you also for being colour-coded with shapes and sounds wearing a yellow jumper. 

Jackie: I did this deliberately. 

Asami: I know you did. You're like, what should I wear to this podcast interview? I'll wear bright yellow. It's the only option. But it's lovely to have you here, especially because we've known each other for a few years, but we've never actually met. So this is going to be 

Jackie: Yeah, it's nice to meet you in the flesh, but it feels like I already know you because we've been kind of speaking for a few years now. 

Asami: Yeah. Remember the photo? I remember I was telling you about your photo. It's like, I feel like I've just been looking at this photo of Jackie and I know who you are. And it's a beautiful photo. The old one and the new one. So everyone go and check it out anyway. 

Jackie: Thank you for having me. 

Asami: Yeah, of course. I wanna start like right at the beginning. I think for a lot of Asian people listening to this podcast, I think especially for those who grew up here. So often we explore themes about not fitting in, not belonging or really taking a long time to learn what is belonging and Who am I and what is my identity? And like finding communities where we feel really seen and heard as well. And I know your story centres around this Jackie. So I was wondering if you could take us back to your childhood and talk to us about some of the challenges you had with fitting in or belonging. 

Jackie: Yeah so my i think earliest experience of feeling like i didn't belong is not something that i remember myself it's something that my mum has told me and it's stuck with me. Before i started school i only spoke thai to my mum and chinese to my dad i didn't speak English. And then once I started school, I had to learn English. My mom told me that I came home from school one day and told her that I no longer wanted to speak Thai or Chinese, like I refused, I would only speak English. And she went, okay. I wish she didn't. I wish that she pushed me to keep learning my native languages. 

So the first two years of primary school were at a mostly like white school where I was the minority so I could completely understand why like five-year-old me. Just wanted to fit in. Like I think I would have felt, noticed that I was different, that I couldn't speak like everybody else. So even though I don't remember that, I, it's interesting that as far back as, you know, primary school, I was already feeling like I was different or didn't fit in and I was all ready wanting to adapt, which was to not speak my native languages. 

Jackie: Um, and so for context, I went to six different schools. So, um, grade four to year six, the two other schools that I went through, um were, there was more diversity there. So I, I wasn't the minority. Um, and then in high school, year seven and eight, um there was diversity there as well. And then from year 9 to 12. Um, the other two schools that I went to were mostly, um, like white Australian and European. So I was the minority there. So it kind of changed over time, like in year nine, in the cohort of year nine students, there were 200 of us. And I think there were maybe two or three Asian Australians and then there were international students. So I, I was really the minority. There. But um, did you 

Asami: Do you feel a difference between the Asian-Australians and the international students who were Asian? 

Jackie: Yes, I distinctly remember that we were different, that they, they were sort of othered. And even though I felt othered in a different way, I think that they were more othered, they were more like exotic or foreign, because they also didn't really speak English well. And they tended to stay within their group. Whereas with myself and the other Asian Australians, we mingled with everybody else. Um, but I also distinctly remember in primary school, um, once I moved schools and there was more diversity, more Asian people, I remember also not feeling like I fit in with my Asian peers, like some of them would speak Vietnamese to each other and some of would speak Chinese and I couldn't understand a word. 

So even then, amongst people that looked like me, I still didn't feel like I fit in or I belonged. So, yeah, it was tough. Like not really knowing where I fit in. And being told by, you know, my dad's side of the family, you're so white. 

MX in - In Steady

Asami: I think I've had similar experiences too Jackie, but how did, how did that make you feel? 

Jackie: I know that it didn't feel new because it's something that I had heard before from different people in my life. It's a sort of common thread, you know, to be told that I'm white or that I am whitewashed or that i'm a banana, which is you look yellow on the outside and you're white on the inside. I think that it made me feel different. It wasn't done in a malicious way. Um, if anything, it was done in more joking way, but it just, it reinforced that I'm different. I'm not like you guys. I'm not like my Chinese family. I'm also not white enough. 

Asami: Mm-hmm. And then maybe at school it was a bit of a different story. Yep. Or what did your friend make up look like? 

Jackie: So in high school, where I was the minority, it was mostly Anglo-Australians and Europeans. I had a lot of European friends, like Greeks, Italians, Russians. 

Asami: Yeah. So maybe people who shared some kind of understanding of some kind of diaspora experience, but not necessarily like the same or similar cultural identity as you, but some kind of shared understanding, do you think that's what you were looking for as a kid? 

Jackie: I think so, even though it wasn't explicit and it wasn’t something that was spoken about amongst myself and my peers, I think that naturally I was seeking some sense of belonging and connection to people that I felt I could relate to. Yeah. 

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Asami: Did you think of yourself as Asian though? Like, or did you, did you like that?

Jackie: I think for the most part of my childhood and adolescence, I don't think I saw myself as Asian, yeah, because I was in a lot of white spaces, communities, schools, a lot of the friends that I grew up with were non-Asian, so I didn't consider myself as Asian at times.

Asami: Hmm, what about now? Like, do you feel Asian? Yes. Yeah. 

Jackie: Yeah, I think from, so from when I was about 25 to now, most of the people in my community, my friends are Asian. Yeah, right. So that's been the big shift. Before 25, a lot of my friends were non-Asian. They were Australians, Europeans. Then after 25, there was this big shift and... Yeah. And then it was quite interesting integrating into Asian communities as well. And friends making jokes about how I'm so white or whitewashed. Again, I was like, where do I belong? And it's, it is hard to make sense of the ways in which they maybe will stereotype you because I think a lot of the time you're questioning yourself, like what is my reality? 

And you know, even with things that have happened throughout my life, like if I'm being treated a certain way, there have been many times where I'm questioning, is that because I'm Asian? Am I being treated that way because I am different or I'm seen as less than, or is that just in my head? 

Asami: Or is it just a thing that's happening? Like someone's just saying something. 

Jackie: And maybe they're well meaning, but it's, I think the way that you internalise it, that it's confusing. 

Asami: Yeah. Okay. I really hear you. what would you say were some of the ways in which you tried to change yourself or you shape shifted yourself to find that sense of fitting in? 

Jackie: I remember the overall experience and how it felt more than specific memories where I shape shifted. So the kind of running themes that I had in my life were around how I thought I was being perceived by other people from like a white lens, I guess. 

MX in - Brown Plains

Thinking back to childhood, from like a really, really young age, I was acutely aware of the way that people treated my mom, not being able to speak English properly. So this could be, it's not a clear memory, but I remember waiting in a line with her and someone, I think the customer service person, they were getting frustrated with her because they couldn't understand her. And then they were starting to speak louder and louder to her as though increasing the volume was just going to make her understand. 

And I remember feeling like angry, protective of her, but also ashamed, like I just wanted to hide. Just did not want that attention on us. 

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Asami: So it's like, whatever it is, as long as you avoid those kinds of feelings. Yep. Yeah. Yeah, it's like not a specific thing you did, but a recurring theme of whatever it took. I would not put myself in a situation like that. 

Jackie: Yes, like blending. 

Asami: Yeah. 

Jackie: Conform, don't make waves, don't stand out in a negative way. Don't bring attention to yourself if it's like bad attention where people are going to judge you or make an assumption about you because of your race. Just stay small and blend in. And yeah, I think that constant assessing like is it safe to show these parts of myself? Do I need to shrink a little more here? Is it okay if I am more emotionally expressive here, or do I need to pull back? It's just this sense of constant scanning, like what is safe and what's not safe? How can I show up here? 

Asami: Yeah, right. And then Jackie, in amongst that, then you went to Far North Queensland. Yes. Right. So tell me, tell me about that. That's really layered, that question. Because it's like, okay, what I'm trying to say is like, for me, I feel like, when I think of Far North Queensland, I do think about the racism towards Asian people, I do think about Pauline Hanson's presence, all these kinds of things. So then how, how was that experience for you. 

Jackie: I moved to Airlie Beach in the Whitsundays, which is far north Queensland, really, really small town. I guess it's a tourist place because it's the Whitsundays, so a lot of people go there to go on a holiday there and I was the minority there in terms of being Asian-Australian, but there were a lot of like Chinese groups of people that would travel there, you know how they rock up on the buses. 

I did feel like an exotic thing, like an exotic fruit that people were curious about, like where did you come from, Where are you from? And would you always say, I'm from Melbourne? Yeah, I am from Melbourne, Australia, but then I'd say my mum is Chinese, sorry, my mum's Thai and my dad's Chinese because I think for the most part, that's what people are asking. They're not asking, are you from Australia? They're asking, what's your background? So I would always follow it up with, these are where my, this is where my parents were from. But yeah, I would hear comments like, oh, you speak English really well, you know? And I don't think people mean harm by that, but again, it leaves me with this feeling of being like othered or that you're different. 

And so I worked at a pub, I worked in a pub and this is so random, but on Tuesdays they had foam parties. So they would fill up the whole pub with foam. And that was really interesting and really. Gross. We had to clean that up at the end of the night. And like my eczema was flaring up during that time. But on Wednesdays, they had wet t-shirt competitions. That was really interesting as well. Yeah, it's very interesting culture up there. But I like I didn't really make friends at work. And again, that left me with like, is it because I'm Asian? Is it because I'm different that they're not interested in getting to know me? That might not have been the case at all, but it's just what I internalised from lived experience. And then that impacted how small I made myself and not making an effort to try and befriend my colleagues because I just thought they're not interested in getting to know me because I'm different. 

Asami: And when you say like you tried to make yourself small, do you mean like physically as well, like the physical presence, like, oh, I better not take up too much space. Or do you just mean kind of energetically? 

Jackie: I think both, I think something that feels very old and familiar for me is making myself small physically, like at uni or when I have attended training, when I got my first counselling job during the four weeks of training during that induction, I always sat on the side at the back and I rarely ever contributed my ideas. So yeah, it's showing up a lot in how I position myself physically. Yeah. 

Asami: What about, I always notice this, you know how sometimes when you're driving and someone's about to cross the road and you give them, you're like, go ahead, go and cross. And some people just walk. They're just like, do do do, do, and then I do know this is such a stereotype, but I do notice a lot of Asian women who will like scurry across the road. They're like you know, like they make themselves small and they hurry to not take up time and to like. Make sure they're not in the way. Whereas other people are just like, I am crossing the road. 

Jackie: I'm just going to take up space. Yeah, I do that. Do you? Yeah. Yeah. When you cross the road. 

Asami: Or you let the car go. Yes. Now I'm practising. I just walk. Yeah. Now. I just walk, yeah. I should try that. Yeah, next time. We'll do it slowly. I think it's a good indicator because it's like real, you know, it's right. Like it's very visceral. Like there's there are two ways you can cross this road. 

Jackie: I'm going to take my time and sit in the discomfort of knowing that someone is waiting for me and that's okay. Yeah. Yeah. I like that. Let me know how you go.

MX fade in - Encore Dance

 It shows up. I dance. So I noticed that it shows up over time. It's showing up in how I dance, less so now, but I used to make my movements really small. Well, when I arrived in class, I always stood at the back of the class. And I remember someone saying to me, why do you always stand at the back? And then you're like, it's comfortable here. I just do it. No one sees me. 

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Asami: Do you think the Far North Queensland experience fed into a bit of this as well? Like, or like, did you witness racism there like directed towards others, but maybe not yourself?

Jackie: Not that I can recall? I think it could sound surprising. That doesn't mean it didn't happen. It's just that I don't necessarily remember it. For me, I noticed sort of not wanting to be grouped as the same as them. Yeah. Like I wanted to be recognised as being different. 

Asami: It's interesting that you say that about like, something within me wanted other people to know that we're not the same, we're the same kind of Asian over here. And is that what you would describe as internalised racism? 

Jackie: Yeah. I think it can feel like that because I guess in a way you're seeing them as an other.

Asami: I wanted to ask you about this, actually, because at Shapes and Sounds, we run cultural competency trainings for mental health services. And in one of the recent sessions that we ran, someone, I was talking about internalised racism and just giving a few of my personal examples. But then someone from the group asked me, oh, what's internalised racism? And then I was like. I don't have a clear definition of this. It's like a really difficult topic to define. But I want to ask you, I feel like you would have... What is the definition of internalised racism? 

Jackie: Gonna chat GPT. Yeah. Yeah, so I think I might have a different take on it. 

I frame it this way in that. It's the internalisation of more negative assumptions or beliefs that we have about a race, or the internalisation of the ways in which we maybe devalue people of another race that are not from a dominant culture. I think what helps me to understand it and to relate to my own internalised racism a bit differently is looking at the underlying emotion. Which is shame, it's internalised shame. And I think it makes a lot of sense. Like if we judge ourselves for having internalised racism, it doesn't give us the opportunity to be curious about it. I think the curiosity helps us to look at like why is it there? What function does that shame have for us? And I thinks similar to all of our emotions, they all have. Function. They're all there to protect us in some ways, like anger is there to help us, to mobilise us to stand up for ourselves and protect ourselves. It's anger is there to say, no, I'm not okay with that. And so anger is adaptive. And I think that I look at shame in the same way in that shame protects us. 

MX in - Learning for life

Jackie: I have an example. Yeah. Yeah. I was going to ask. Yeah. So a couple of years ago, um, I attended couples therapy training. Um, and it was in a really big group setting, uh, with mostly white Australians, Europeans, and they were in like US. 

Asami: You as a therapist, like learning how to do couples therapy. 

Jackie: So we were there to learn the emotion-focused therapy approach to working with couples. And there were a couple of Asian people there as well. So there was one guy sitting right at the front of the classroom, directly in front of the facilitator. So she was standing up there delivering the content. And hey, can I demonstrate how you're sitting? So he was sitting right at the front of the room and he was sitting like. 

Asami: Yeah, for everyone, if you're audio only, you have to see this on YouTube. 

Jackie: So I'm, I'm spread out if anyone's listening and can't see I'm spread out on my chair, um, and like slouching, yeah, not sitting upright. And he was chewing gum loudly. So that was one thing that was really irking me because I just don't like the sound anyway. he kept pulling out his phone and like, I don't know what he was doing scrolling. Oh, yeah. And then at times it looked like he was nodding off. Like, I'm going to demonstrate it. I know that people who can't see me won't see this, but they can just imagine that I'm sitting there closing my eyes. So like there were times where he was just closing his eyes and I was like. 

Asami: Were you distracted? You were like not taking in the content. You were just watching this guy. 

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Jackie: It's still so funny when I think about it, um, because he was just not picking up on social cues at all, you know, like not reading the room. But so going back to this idea of internalised racism, it felt for me like I was internalising racism because I was sitting with, Oh my God, like, can you not do that? You're making us look bad. Yep. Yep. I wasn't seeing him as an individual, I was seeing him through the lens of how white people are going to look at us. 

Asami: Yeah, like, not just him and this annoying guy at the front. 

Jackie: To them. 

Asami: All the Asians in the room slash all the Asians they've ever interacted with. Yep. Yeah, right. 

Jackie: Yeah, like I really personalised it, rather than just seeing him as this person who was behaving in a very unpalatable way. But I was curious about it. I think because I was sitting with. I'd go so far as to say that I felt disgust. I was just like... And shame, I went away from that feeling bad, like feeling ashamed about the shame, if that makes sense. Yeah, you feeling ashamed. 

Asami: About being. 

Jackie: So I took it to therapy and I was like, what is this? I'm really curious. I want to know what it's about. And I remember saying to my therapist, like, I don't even want to say this out loud because I feel so gross saying this. And she was like come on, just tell me, let's let's look at what this is about for you. Um, and we unpacked it and understood that. You know, for me, growing up, I just wanted to fit in and belong and be accepted at all costs. And so how that would look for me growing up is that I would conform. You know I would be palatable. I would so attuned to reading the room to then know how to kind of mould myself. And there this guy was who was not following those rules at all. He was like, yeah, just doing what I feel like doing. Yeah. Who cares what anyone else thinks. Yeah. And so his behaviour kind of threatened the space or the spaces that I try to create for myself. 

Asami: And all that energy that you're taking to do everything perfectly. 

Jackie: Mm-hmm. Yes. 

Asami: And you're like, oh, wow, other people don't do that. 

Jackie: Yeah, like, how dare you not follow the rules. So, yeah, it helped to soften the shame that I had around the shame that I have towards him because I was able to relate to it differently and just understand that that shame was adaptive. It's just there to protect me. It's there to say, you know, conform and behave in ways that people will accept you. And if anyone around you is going to threaten that, then that's going to stir up something in me. So. 

Asami: I get it, I understand the shame of feeling ashamed, or like being ashamed looking at this person and then the shame on top of that.

I do my groceries at the market because I like fresh food and I go at a time when it's not busy because I hate crowds, but because it's Queen Victoria market as well, so there are lots of tourists, right? And lots of excited people from Asia who like love food and then sometimes, this is so early, this is like 6.45am on a weekday, so I just want to get the job done. I'm sorry. You're at the market at 6 45 in the morning. Yeah. I don't like to waste my weekends on groceries. Okay. 

So here I am. I'm getting my vegetables and I'm doing my weekly shop. And then this woman. I know she was excited and having a great holiday, but she was like literally reaching over my groceries and like waving a bag of like grapes and money in her other hand, like this. And then, and then I was like, okay, maybe this is normal. Like in some parts of Asia, like, you know, the market culture and it's like a bit rough, just transactional, but I was so annoyed. And I was, like bloody hell. I'm trying to do my groceries. Like this is not how we do things here. Like I had all these like really intense thoughts. Like, how dare you? Like, this is so embarrassing. What does everyone else think? All of that internalised racism stuff came up so... So viscerally through my body, but is that internalised racism or is that person just annoying? 

Jackie: Yeah, Some people are just really annoying. Yeah i've definitely had those thoughts like this is not how we do it here in australia and then you catch yourself you're like oh my god yeah did i just say that 

MX  fade in - Learning for Life

Jackie: At least just saying it internally right you're not actually verbalising to the person because i just 

Asami: Sometimes I can feel myself put on a very white voice and be like, excuse me. 

Jackie: Do you mind, mate?

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Jackie: I think it's all in the meaning that we make from those experiences, so if that had happened and you were like, oh, this is so irritating, like, why can't this person just wait like everybody else, then that would just be that. It would just be that you're feeling really irritated by the lack of consideration, you know, the lack of awareness of this person. Um, and then also imposing on your space. That's very uncomfortable. But then if the meaning we make is about their race, then I guess it can feel like internalised racism. But I also like, I bring it back to the whole idea of shame. Like what is the underlying emotion there? Like if the meaning that you make is about the person's race, that it's worth exploring. Yeah, like how does that actually impact me? How do I actually feel about that? Cognitively, the thoughts are. This is not how we do this here, but what is underlying that? Yeah. That's so true. 

Asami: Like now, you and I, we're good at reflecting, it's like okay, I can see where that behaviour's coming from, I get it. But do you think that internalised racism, will it go away for us? 

Jackie: If we look at internalised racism and the underlying emotion behind that is shame. And then the question is, can you get rid of shame? And it's like, can we get rid anger? Can you get ready to sadness and fear? They're all like very basic human emotions that we all have. They are adaptive and they are there to give us more information about what we need. And so I don't know if we can get rid of shame, but I think that we can relate to it differently.

So. In therapy, when I work with clients and in my own therapy, we talk a lot about parts. So if we think of shame as being a part of us, if we can be curious about the shame, about what it has to say, about what its trying to do for us, in what ways is it trying to protect us, and even understand like how old is that shame. Cause I think for a lot of us, that shame is old. Like for me, it's, it goes all the way back to early primary school when I could see how people were speaking to my mom. You know, it just made me want to hide because I was like, oh, like people are looking at us. We're standing out and I don't like this. 

MX in - Sleeping Dragon 

So if we can recognise like how old those parts of us are or how old the shame is and we can tend to it in a more loving and curious way, in a way that we needed as a child. When I was experiencing that shame when people were speaking to my mom in that way, I think like all children, we need someone there to just be there and to hold us and to comfort us and to let us know that there's nothing wrong with us, that we cared for and that we're loved. I think if we can relate to the shame like that, as if it were a younger part of us that needs to be tended to, then it can change how we relate to the internalised shame

Asami: And when you say like, to relate to the shame in a much more kind of mature and supportive manner, do you really just mean like, actually just talking to yourself and like actually just like verbally reassuring yourself? 

Jackie: Yeah. Yeah. So I was introduced to this way of working with parts of myself in my own personal therapy. And then it's something I've learned to do along the way doing more professional development and working this way with my clients. It's pretty much like just talking to the shame. So how I would talk to clients about it is just noticing like what parts of you are coming up. Sometimes people notice the parts through words. So they might say, oh, I can hear a voice saying, you know, don't stand out, don't make waves or they might see, they might be able to visualise what the shame looks like. It could be like five-year-old them. 

So then I would ask them to invite that part of them to just be there and just say like. What does the shame have to say? If people are having contact with like a five-year-old version of them, I would say, you know, can you just like stay with that five-years old version of you and see what it has to say about how it feels about what it needs. And sometimes I would ask them to then bring in their current wise adult self into that scene, just imagining like if you go there. What does the five year old you want or need? Can the older, wiser version of you give that to them or could you let them know what they want to hear? 

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Asami: So Jackie, we've spoken a lot about things like having different parts of ourselves, or even just like shape shifting to try and find different communities or spaces that we belong to. But it reminds me of that term code switching that we hear a lot. Do you have an example of code switching? Like what that actually looks like? 

Jackie: Yeah I do. One would be how I mirror people's emotional tone so if I am with you know Asian people who hold back emotional expression then I would find myself holding it back as well I think for fear of making them uncomfortable if I'm too expressive, and it can also show up in the language I use. And I think that that happens, you know, from person to person, as well as in different contexts, whether it's at work or at uni or professional development. I think it has its usefulness. I think in a lot of ways, we are required to adapt to different environments and with different people. How we show up professionally is going to be quite different to how we up with our friends and our family. But I think when it comes to code switching, what can come up for a lot of people is feeling inauthentic. Yeah. And that's something that I experienced a lot of growing up, like not really knowing who I was because I was constantly moulding to fit in and like wondering who am I? Like what are my opinions and how do I really feel about this?

I don’t feel this much anymore, it used to feel more prominent. I always preferred being alone because it's when I felt like I could take off that mask, when I didn’t have to assess safety, assess how I had to be with other people and so I think that for me was an indication that I was code switching so much that I was compromising myself and then how that felt for me was. Had this sort of fragmented sense of identity not I didn't feel whole there were so many different parts of me showing up so differently in different places and with different people that I was like who am I? 

And yeah, it's how we relate to those parts of us. With curiosity and compassion. Like I recognise that in some environments I'm showing up in this way, and in other environments I am showing up this way. It doesn't mean that I'm splitting, that I'm two completely different people. I'm just kind of adapting to my environment.

Asami: It's so interesting, isn't it? And I really want to get your take on this. The sentiment I hear from other people, and sometimes I feel this myself too, but I don't know, I feel like I've gone on a long journey to try and understand this within me. But it's like, sometimes you can be compassionate towards yourself, but then like, can you, I don't know, can be like coddling yourself too much that you're not actually helping yourself grow? Like similar to you, I really like to be alone too. And I think like, okay, I need to, you know, take care of my energy and blah, blah, blah. Healthy or am I just being like compassionate towards myself when really I should actually be out there like doing more social connection stuff. 

Jackie: So I know that for myself, even though I prefer to spend time alone, like I just love it so much, if sometimes I find that I have spent a lot of time alone and that maybe I've forgotten to check in with a friend, or I think, oh, it's been a while since I've like seen this friend. So then you listen to that part of you, like the part of view that says, oh it's being a while. Yeah. What am I saying there? Oh, I want connection. I want to check in with them and see how they're doing and then what would it mean to lean into that part of me and then I would pick up my phone and call my friend. I think for you and I, I can't speak for everybody, but there are parts of us that really like to spend time alone and retreat. But there are probably other parts of that want connection and want friendship and relationships. Yeah, well, I feel like you like fixed me. 

Asami: That was like an amazing therapy session. No, honestly, I've never thought of it like that, but that makes so much sense. And like on the topic of therapy, and you are a therapist, I'm really curious to know, because now you're part of the Shapes and Sounds practitioner list, and I'm sure many Asian Australian people seek you out, do you ever have experiences where their stories are so similar to yours? Like even now we're talking, our stories feel really similar. Some of the people that you work with, do you still get triggered by people's stories or like, how did you take care of yourself through really similar experiences? 

Jackie: Yeah. Well, one of the ways that I take care of myself is going to therapy myself and having good supervision as well. But yeah, some stories do still hit close to home. I think about 50% of my caseload are Asian clients. And then even with non-Asian clients, there are threads of anyone's story that I can connect with and resonate with. And some of in my. Feel more familiar. I think early on in my career as a counsellor, it used to have more of an impact on me emotionally, but now I think my boundaries are a bit better and being able to compartmentalise and reflect on what's mine and what's the client's. 

I think what feels more resonant for me when I work with clients now is not so much their stories or the details of their stories. It's more the felt sense of an experience. One of them being shame. Early on when I first started therapy, like asking me like, what's just come up for you as you said that, like I noticed a tear come up. Like that was really confronting. I was like, this is too much, literally stop looking at me. And I would like often avert my gaze because I was, I can't look at her right now. Sometimes when she said something really nice to me, I wasn't able to look her in the eye. I would often look away and then she'd be like, what just happened there? And it's like, can you stop like pointing out everything that I'm doing? 

But I wanted to be there, I wanted to do the work but it was very unfamiliar, like very foreign and sometimes too vulnerable. And then over time, I was able to work through that and feel more and more comfortable with being cared for in that way and it's what I see in a lot clients that I work with. Particularly with Asian clients, when they receive that from me, I can see that it's uncomfortable. Wow, yeah. Yeah, so I really resonate with the felt sense of that, of how uncomfortable it can feel to be so deeply tuned to. 

Asami: Hmm. I know you're a wonderful therapist, I can tell. I already want to hire you, but it's too late now, we know each other. But can you tell me, I'm so curious to know, what does your practise name, Morrow Endeavour, what does that mean? 

Jackie: Is it okay if I pause here? Yeah. Is it OK if we don't talk about that one? Yeah, sure. I'm happy to tell you. So my ex-partner chose that name. 

Asami: Okay, okay. 

Jackie: You don't really want it like. 

Asami: Of course. Okay, we'll wrap it up another way. Yeah. 

Jackie: Yeah, no, that's fine. Thank you. I'm happy to talk about therapy or whatever other questions you might have. Okay. 

Asami: I feel like we've gone so deep and so like tangentially, but such a beautiful story that you shared with us, Jackie. And thank you so much for sharing your story and for being so vulnerable with us too. I had a really great chat. I feel we could have laughed more about our weird internalised racism stories, just to deal with the shame of it all. 

But um, everyone, if you also love Jackie's voice, like I love Jackie his voice, know that you can find Jackie over on the shapes and sounds website, just shapes and sound.com and you can search for Jackie under our therapist list as well. Um, you can also find Jackie on Instagram at Morrow underscore Endeavour, um, and we'll tag Jackie so you'll be able to find her as well, but um, all in all, thank you everyone for listening and joining us here today. 

You can find us on Instagram and LinkedIn at Just Shapes and Sounds. Please subscribe to this podcast on your favourite app and leave us a review because it really helps other people find us. And download this episode for offline listening. And most importantly, please share this episode with your friends because word of mouth really helps to destigmatize mental health within Asian communities. And I think within the Asian diaspora, So many of us just need to work through internalised racism, like Jackie and I. But thanks so much, Jackie. Thanks for being here. 

Jackie: Thank you for having me. It's been really nice to talk with you and have a good laugh with you as well. No, it's been awesome. Yeah, thank you. 

Keywords: internalised racism, Asian Australian mental health, cultural competency, Asian Australian counsellor, multicultural psychology, racism and mental health, Asian Australian identity, culturally responsive therapy